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Policy
Fringe Theories Noticeboard, religious topics, and WP:CANVAS
For years the Fringe Theory Noticeboard has been a go-to for a lot of editors when it comes to soliciting help on religious topics. This has caused… problems. FTN seems bent towards a particular kind of skepticism which, while healthy for Wikipedia as a whole, leads to some serious issues with WP:NPOV, WP:CIVILITY, and on occasion WP:OUT on these topics. The most signifficant incident off the top of my head was admins coming down on FTN for insisting that members of Falun Gong declare themselves as COI editors on any Falun Gong topics. There’s also been some pretty big issues with FTN regulars editing religious articles not realizing when something is technical/academic terminology when it comes to religious topics, which is playing out right now in the discussion here and which got its start on FTN.
There seems to be this attitude that religions should be treated as any other fringe theory and there are regular calls to edit religious articles in a way that seems to be fairly openly hostile. This definitely comes across as trying to right a great wrong with religion not being treated with appropriate intellectual derision. This is especially the case with New Religious Movements such as Mormonism, Falun Gong, etc.
My concern is that exclusively bringing these topics to WP:FTN and not, say, the religion wikiproject (or the appropriate wikiproject for a given religion) ends up feeling like a deliberate decision to exclude people who may be less hostile to a specific religion and comes across as WP:CANVAS, especially in light of how willing FTN regulars are to throw WP:CIVILITY out the window on religious topics to the point of multiple admin warnings and thread closures. My willingness to assume good faith is pretty low here considering the history of open hostility to (mainstream) religious/spiritual topics when they come up on FTN.
My fundamental question here as it relates to policy is should religious topics which are specifically relating to religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim, fall under the “fringe theory” umbrella? If so, should the appropriate wikiprojects be notified at the same time so as to not basically canvas people who have specific biases but not necessarily a useful working knowledge of a given topic? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ10:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Falun Gong is notably the only religious movement to have a dedicated CTOP designation, ie. Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Falun Gong, beyond the broader Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Pseudoscience and fringe science. Canvassing specific wikiprojects or not doesn't really mean much in my opinion. There definitely are POV editors, but most editors in WikiProjects on religion are heterogeneous. I do think there are tensions in terms of whether Wikipedia exists to promote a religious movements viewpoint about its religion, especially theological summaries, but I don't agree a policy change is helpful or warranted here. If there's any policy to look at, it's about sourcing requirements and weighing. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Falun Gong is notably the only religious movement to have a dedicated CTOP designation
Keep in mind the incident I was referring to was FTN demanding Falun Gong editors out their religious affiliation when editing pages, which the admins in the discussion came down like a meteorite on. It's not just a question of "Is this religion fringe/y" but this sort of r/atheism open hostility to religious topics, especially when it gets into the theological weeds and not just something which is clearly fringe. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ10:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand I do remember plenty of action in relation to the LDS/COI fracas, like an enormous amount of activity at ANI ending in sanctions.[1] and a WP:BUREAUCRAT losing their bits. But we're told here the multi-admin "meteor strike" was on FTN participants? Curious. Bon courage (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There can be 'fringe theories' about everything, including religious history and theology. It is trivial for wikiproject pages to transclude FTN if desired so as to provide notifications to followers. Feoffer (talk) 10:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the issue isn't other people transcluding FTN, it's FTN editors only pinging FTN on religious topics when the editing gets contentious, as opposed to anyone else regardless of their experience in the exact topic in question, which is why it feels pretty strongly like WP:CANVAS. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ10:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not this again. This is like a stuck record from the OP, who keeps popping up at FTN to air this supposed grievance. The lack of the examples in their complaint speaks volumes and I suggest Hitchen's razor is applied. But, to repeat what has often been said there: religion does not fall under WP:FRINGE but when claims from a religion obtrude into the real world (like claiming that Christian Science can cure disease or that the E-meter has a useful function) then WP:FRINGE can certainly apply; the religious aspect doesn't give nonsense some sort of Holy Shield from Wikipedia's NPOV policy by which it must be accurately described within a rational, knowledge-based context. Bon courage (talk) 11:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is like a stuck record from the OP, who keeps popping up at FTN to air this supposed grievance.
What? I was told to bring this here during the last huge blowout about it and hadn't gotten around to it, the current spate of Mormon topics on FTN made me think it's finally time to get around to it. Beyond that I'm a regular at FTN? I'm not "popping up at FTN to air this supposed grievance", I'm a regular contributor there who is bothered by the handling of a specific topic at FTN and this is a recurring and ongoing problem, who only brings it up when that problem comes to the forefront, which it has in two separate and ongoing threads.
The lack of the examples in their complaint speaks volumes
I didn't provide specific examples because the main talk page of FTN is right there for all to see and I didn't want it to come across as airing grievances with specific individuals, or make the discussion about, say, Cunning folk traditions and the Latter Day Saint movement rather than the broader issue of FTN on religious topics.
religion does not fall under WP:FRINGE but when claims from a religion obtrude into the real world (like claiming that Christian Science can cure disease or that the E-meter has a useful function) then WP:FRINGE can certainly apply
I addressed this right away in the post you're replying to. The issue isn't the E-meter like content, which are absolutely fringe, but rather people treating core claims of theology as a fringe topic, when it may be a bit fuzzy in a Venn diagram between a fringe topic and a religious one, or even just blanket religious topics being treated as fringe despite them being wholly articles of faith. You've been around FTN long enough to know that there's a contingent that see religion as an inherent enemy and I'm very far from the only person to bring this up recently. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ11:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think you're imagining things and keep banging on about reddit and atheism. If people want to believe a Douglas DC-8 piloted by Xenu put Thetans in a volcano (or whatever) as part of their 'core theology' that's fine. If they say it actually happened that's a problem. There is nothing here to fix. Or do you have a specific proposal? Bon courage (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think you're imagining things and keep banging on about reddit and atheism.
As I'm far from the only one to raise this specific concern, that sure seems like a mass hallucination then. I (and others) use "r/atheism" as a shorthand for a specific form of "angry at religion" type of persona that pops up basically all over in bursts. It's a shorthand, and it's one where I'm far from the only person using it.
If people want to believe a Douglas DC-8 piloted by Xenu put Thetans in a volcano (or whatever) as part of their 'core theology' that's fine.
What isn't fine is users not feeling that a topic is being treated with appropriate derision, as opposed to just WP:NPOV and addressing WP:PROFRINGE. This comes up a hell of a lot on religious topics on FTN, and while it's not exactly a majority stance it is a present one. A contingent of FTN basically likes viewing the Resurrection of Jesus and the Loch Ness monster as rhetorically equivalent and deserving of the same sort of treatment. Regardless of personal beliefs around either, Wikipedia is not the place to air personal grievances with religion.
There is nothing here to fix. Or do you have a specific proposal?
Well, seeing as FTN handles religious topics indelicately, inexpertly, and with a very gung-ho attitude I think that making sure the appropriate wikiproject is roped in on religious issues would probably do quite a lot. I think the current discussion on cunning folk is a pretty great example of FTN jumping the gun due to a lack of familiarity with the literature on a given topic. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ11:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProjects do not or should not create Wikipedia:Local consensus. You are welcome to add any relevant WikiProject banners on any talk pages, and notify any WikiProjects you want for broader discussions. It would not be seen as canvassing, because a WikiProject in of itself does not represent any particular NPOV (hopefully true for the WP:TERRORISM related ones). Sure, {{WikiProject Mormon}} likely has more adherents of LDS faith, but also more importantly, people with scholarly knowledge, whether as adherents, critics and other. If a specific WikiProject is POV pushing or trying to create local consensus, that can be dealt with, but in of itself, notifying any WikiProject you want is fine. Admittedly some projects like WP:ISRAEL and WP:PALESTINE COULD be merged, but neither projects are in of themselves "canvassing" when being notified. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a specific WikiProject is POV pushing or trying to create local consensus, that can be dealt with
This is what I think is happening with FTN, though not necessarily very explicitly. "Anti-religion" isn't a neutral point of view, and it can come across as canvasing to go to a place where that's a prevailing attitude while simply ignoring the other wikiprojects that may actually have more ability to contribute directly to the topics at hand.
Essentially I don't feel that
a WikiProject in of itself does not represent any particular NPOV
Anyways, your point begs what's considered neutral/default state, and when it comes to religion, is not an easy one. I find this essay helpful Wikipedia:Criticisms of society may be consistent with NPOV and reliability. As someone who was raised extremely religious and now atheist, I am appreciative that Wikipedia has always been a decent source of summarizing the state of literature out there. In some cases, it was not as "comprehensive" as my specific religious theological education, because the sourcing requirements were not up-to par. There are better resources off-wiki if the goal is to provide a religious seminar. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 12:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the bigger issue is where it relates to New religious movements like Falun Gong, Mormonism, the Moonies, etc. which have a lot less established literature around theology and people tend to be a lot more open about treating with derision. Hell, I've been accused of being crypto-Falun Gong on FTN and I'm an FTN regular... Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ12:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose some notions are risible, and being labelled 'religion' doesn't mean a topic becomes deserving of respect (although maybe religious people believe this?) Thus yogic flying is as daft as perinium sunning: just because one has religious-y connections doesn't mean it isn't nonsense on toast. Bon courage (talk) 12:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are imaging (or maybe projecting) this "anger". Complaining about the supposed mental state of fellow editors is not useful. Wikipedia editors are often inexpert; it is the basis of much discussion on every article ever. If anybody want to inform any WikiProject that a discussion at any noticeboard may be of interest they may do so. Indeed that is often useful. Bon courage (talk) 12:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are imaging (or maybe projecting) this "anger". Complaining about the supposed mental state of fellow editors is not useful.
Not sure what the Cunning folk traditions thread has to do with anything. There were only 4 posts by 3 posters (including you and an IP). The initial post by @Feoffer: was clearly on the wrong board -- such a proposal if having too few people for consensus (or if too contentious) on an article Talk page is meant for an RfC on that Talk page, usually with notification of the relevant WikiProjects. The lack of replies on FTN suggests other watchers were generally aware this was misplaced. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since the stated purpose of this noticeboard (top of page) is "to discuss already-proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines" and nothing of the sort is in evidence, I suggest this thread is closed as off-topic. Bon courage (talk) 12:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this should probably be on one of the other Village Pump boards, since there's not really a P&G change or problem suggested here. It's not a huge deal either way, and the thread is already going, but the procedure to move a discussion thread is easy enough and can be done by anyone. Warrenmck, if you like, you can use the {{Moved discussion to}} template set and simply cut-and-paste this thread to a different pump. (But again, not a big deal either way.) SamuelRiv (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Putting aside the rest, the question is should religious topics which are specifically relating to religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim, fall under the “fringe theory” umbrella. That's a fine policy question to ask here IMO as it's about WP:FRINGE. But the implied question here is actually "should religious topics be exempt from WP:FRINGE" and the answer is no. Not every aspect of religion has to do with WP:FRINGE, but some do. If someone is applying WP:FRINGE where it doesn't belong, that's the same as any user applying any other policy incorrectly and would have to be dealt with on the user level. If you think users are systematically misapplying policy at FTN, that's an issue for WP:AN and would need a lot of unambiguous diffs. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 13:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think this could be done at WP:AN, because it’s more of a general attitude thing than a problem with specific users. Unambiguous diffs of FFN misapplying FTN are either easy or impossible, depending on what the remit of FTN is. I definitely agree that religion shouldn’t be exempt from fringe, but there’s a contingent that treat religion itself as fringe.
looking at the threads I’ve been involved in recently on religion:
1. The LDS and Cunning Folk thread, which seems to heavilystem from a misunderstanding that “cunning folk” is the specific applicable academic term which exists well beyond Mormon topics.
2. The Joseph Smith Golden Plates thread. It’s rife with calls that Wikipedia should be outright calling Joseph Smith an active fraud, sources not fully agreeing with that conclusion (though leaving the possibility open) be damned.
3. The Tukdam thread, which did actually call out some issues with that page but also didn’t grasp the language used by researchers working with minority religious communities (and fair enough, that’s esoteric)
Of twenty threads on FTN right now, nine are directly about religion (discounting the tenth which mentions religion but which is really just about racism). Most of these do actually belong at FTN, but the substance of the threads really highlights that “religion is not inherently fringe” seems to be openly ignored by a decent chunk of the involved parties. If half the content on FTN is going to be religious in nature, then it’s not really just about fringe theories anymore, is it? And the lack of civility or ability to handle sensitive topics becomes a prominent issue that could use guidelines for handling so we reduce the amount of inexpert sledgehammers wielded in the direction of religious topics. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying all the (what you term) 'religious' threads at FTN are there properly, but there is a problem with stuff being raised there improperly. Then there is the vague complaint that you think some people ignore the “religion is not inherently fringe” idea, but with not a diff in sight. This is bizarre. The supposed bombshell 'cunning folk' thread has only four mild-mannered posts (one of them yours) discussing a proposal.[2] Isn't that what noticeboards are for? Bon courage (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're so convinced there's nothing of merit here, why the WP:TEND? I think we're all fairly clear on your perspective that this is a nothing sandwich, but hell even in this thread:
being labelled 'religion' doesn't mean a topic becomes deserving of respect (although maybe religious people believe this?)
Feels sort of like the problem in a nutshell? Wikipedia's policies around civility and bigotry (not necessarily articles, just to pre-address that) absolutely does distinguish "religious belief" among other categories as deserving respect when it comes to civility. The point isn't respecting the beliefs, it's respecting that they are beliefs and mean a heck of a lot to some people, and while "some people" in this equation aren't entitled to ignore wikipedia policies around verifiability and neutrality in favour of their argument, that doesn't mean that they deserve to have their beliefs mocked and ridiculed in talk pages (but let's be real, the more fringe-y it gets the more that'll happen to a degree).
That we seem to have exempted NRMs from a need to handle the same way we do world religions is a genuine systemic failing of WP:NPOV. I can't for a second imagine someone who is committed to WP:NPOV and was themselves a Mormon wouldn't take more than a passing glance at the current state of FTN and instantly nope out due to the behaviour of editors in talk pages and noticeboards, and we need those editors to better address fringe relating to those topics. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ14:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From a glance, FTN seems to have a large number of useful Mormon participants. If there are civility problems, raise them at ANI, AE or appropriate venues (but again, you have provided zero evidence). To make the same point again: beliefs are beliefs, but reality is reality. There is no "respect" according to any claim in that latter realm, religious or not. Instead, Wikipedia relies on sources and concentrates on conveying accepted knowledge and if that upsets religious sensibilities, well: tough. So no, the Shroud of Turin is not Jesus' funeral shroud, the Earth is not 6,000 years old, Jesus did not visit America, and prayer does not cure cancer. NRMs and 'mainstream' religions are treated the same in this respect. Bon courage (talk) 14:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in this discussion was a personal attack at you nor was it advocating for a diluting of Wikipedia’s stances around religion. I cannot begin to fathom the tone with which you’ve elected to engage here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ14:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, you're casting WP:ASPERSIONS on a whole noticeboard (effectively hundreds of editors) saying things which are largely un-evidenced (no diffs given) or simply wrong (such as Mormons shunning FTN). You have attacked me with a "why the WP:TEND?" jibe. Bon courage (talk) 14:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The part where you accuse Bon courage of disruptive editing (WP:TEND) without apparent grounds (or with really weak grounds that would equally apply to yourself) does appear to be a personal attack. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m trying to act in good faith here, it genuinely seemed Bon Courage was basically misrepresenting the initial argument while saying any discussion should be procedurally shut down. It was not intended as a personal attack. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ14:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"was admins coming down on FTN for insisting that members of Falun Gong declare themselves as COI editors on any Falun Gong topics" did this actually happen? I remember we had a whole string of issues with Falun Gong members being disruptive but I don't remember admins sanctioning FTN or anything like that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The closest thing I can find is this related AE request where the filer was TBanned, another editor who was seen as broadly pro-Falun Gong was indeffed, and "editors in the Falun Gong topic area" (not FTN regulars) were "warned to not speculate about other editors' religious views, nor to attempt to disqualify others' comments based on actual or perceived religious views" (not against "insisting that members of Falun Gong declare themselves as COI editors on any Falun Gong topics").
In the FTN thread linked by Warren, there is a comment by ScottishFinnishRadish that WP:TPG is clear, Do not ask for another's personal details. It is inappropriate for a number of reasons, and adherents of a faith should in no way be expected to share that while editing. which isn't exactly "was admins coming down on FTN for insisting that members of Falun Gong declare themselves as COI editors on any Falun Gong topics". It's more "one admin saying that it isn't permitted to ask other editors whether they are Falun Gong adherents" which is... sort of close-ish? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats just an admin saying that you're supposed to say "Do you have a COI with topic X" without any prompting as to what the COI is believed to be not "Are you a member of topic X? If so you have a COI" which is a pretty common note that admins give. Its certainly not giving COI editors a free pass on COI as long as their COI is personal info (it almost always is)... Which appears to be what the OP was suggesting. COI is not an excuse for outing, but outing can't be used as a shield against legitimate COI concerns. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It'd be a lot easier if you refer us to specific example threads here. It's hardly throwing anyone under the bus to link to discussion threads instead of just implying them for us to find ourselves -- and people seem to be getting offended regardless.
Meanwhile, I believe what you have been referring to many times here is the Cargo cult thread (which is where the suggestion of canvassing and referral to VPP is made). I have two notes: first is that I agree that a P&G noticeboard should not be used for canvassing people back to an article Talk page or an RfC (per existing norms, RfC notifications are done on subject-matter WikiProjects, by subscription, etc). Generally with noticeboards like WP:RSN the scope is limited to resolving issues of the P&G, unless/until discussion goes into article content, at which point it is referred back to the article Talk page. The P&G noticeboards I've followed have been pretty disciplined about this, so I'm not sure whether that's one issue with FTN. On a similar note of scope, noticeboards can refer to superceding policy, and FT is pretty much made up entirely of superceding policies (it feels like it could be better as an explanatory essay more than a guideline imo). So if a post there is actually about a RS or OR dispute, maybe it should instead be referred to RSN or NORN? SamuelRiv (talk) 15:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
and people seem to be getting offended regardless.
To the extent I regret raising this thread. I think this thread is itself a microcosm of my core issue: FTN is unable to handle some religious topics in good faith. Not "FTN needs to treat religious claims as non-fringe" which is a honestly strange read multiple people here have had considering that my initial post specifically was narrowly focused on matters of theology and, as an example:
To make the same point again: beliefs are beliefs, but reality is reality. There is no "respect" according to any claim in that latter realm, religious or not. Instead, Wikipedia relies on sources and concentrates on conveying accepted knowledge and if that upsets religious sensibilities, well: tough. So no, the Shroud of Turin is not Jesus' funeral shroud, the Earth is not 6,000 years old, Jesus did not visit America, and prayer does not cure cancer. NRMs and 'mainstream' religions are treated the same in this respect.
How in any chosen diety's name does any of this have anything to do with a concern raised here? Not once did I call for Wikipedia to treat religious topics as hyper-credible per internal logic, nor did I express any concern about articles "offending religious sensibilities", nor did I make any sort of argument that'd exclude faith healing from the remit of FTN:
should religious topics which are specifically relating to religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim, fall under the “fringe theory” umbrella?
Faith healing and every single example from Bon Voyage's reply above make specific empirical claims. All of them, without exception. So what I'm left with here is an FTN regular who came in extremely hot for some reason ignoring the fact that I'm also an FTN regular while pretending that my argument was an axe to grind, when my core argument is that FTN handling these topics alone without involving editors familiar with them has lead to some problematic editing, in addition to FTN basically openly vilifying NRMs on FTN. Not once in this entire thread have I said that FTN should leave all religious topics alone, nor, as some seem to imply, have I argued that religious claims should be treated with credulity and handled with kid gloves.
At this point to even engage with this thread I feel like I have to dedicate a fair amount of time to addressing arguments I never made. It feels like people are trying to read some kind of apologetics into my comments which I never intended, and if that's coming across to multiple people then that's a communication problem on my end, but I think that this thread right here has become a perfect example of how complex, loaded, nuanced topics which invoke strong emotions on all sides are not necessarily best handled in a vacuum by a noticeboard which, as much as we'd all love the policy-backed
Neutrally worded notices to noticeboards or projects are not canvassing
to be true, it doesn't necessarily hold water in practice.
You made an erroneous distinction: "religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim". These are not cleanly distinct things. Religious history and theology is rife with empirical claims (Lazarus e.g.), and these are not exempt from "fringe". Your argument is weirdly personifying a noticeboard of hundreds of people with statements as though it were an monolith, like "FTN is unable to handle some religious topics in good faith", with zero evidence. Perhaps the reason you get a "hot" response is because you write accusatory, wrong and confused statements about "problems" which, without any evidence, come across as borderline trolling.This is all seems track back to when FTN addressed your own muddle over panspermia where,[4] instead of grappling with the problems at hand, you perceived some kind of problem with the noticeboard that was solving those content problems. There you wrongly asserted It’s absolutely erroneous to say “panspermia is a fringe theory” which, ironically, shows the very lack of understanding of specialist terminology you are now attacking here in imagined others. Instead of taking on the chin, you insinuated there was some kind of issue with FTN ("I do think that there's something very problematic here going on"). As another user observed in that linked thread "Instead of trying to find a solution, you are making accusations while claiming you are not". And so we have this pattern here again. It is a time sink. (It should be noted, if this[5] is to believed, that the OP's editing has been to FTN and ANI hugely more than to anything else in the Project, which tells its own story. I'm thinking WP:NOTHERE.) Bon courage (talk) 14:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There you wrongly asserted It’s absolutely erroneous to say “panspermia is a fringe theory” which, ironically, shows the very lack of understanding of specialist terminology you are now attacking here in imagined others
Well, seeing as I’m a research meteoriticist (essjay aside) I’m pretty comfortable pointing to that specific example as “strong options, little expertise” on the point of FTN. In fact, I’m far more comfortable pointing to that one as an example of FTN inexpertly handling nuanced topics than I am around any of the religious ones. Theres a reason it was very easy for me to cite a pile of papers which make the case that researchers are using “panspermia” in a way that Wikipedia insists is only pseudo-panspermia. The distinction on Wikipedia cannot pass WP:VERIFY, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT at FTN aside, which is why I think the best proposal was bifurcating it to Panspermia (Astrobiology) and Panspermia (Fringe theory). FTN is extremely slow to acknowledge there may be a fundamental misunderstanding on the part of the noticeboard around a fringe topic. Of course, trying to bring in a bit of nuance with citations didn’t stop people from accusations of being WP:PROFRINGE and possessing a
lack of understanding of specialist terminology
I’m going to be very honest, since your first post here commenting you’ve been fully on the offensive insisting this is some kind of misguided personal crusade. Between assuming motivations/incompetence on my part and some shall we go with routinely characterful reimagining of the posts you’re responding to I think I’m at least going to bow out of engaging with your replies here, and suggest we consider that mutual to avoid gunking up discussions more. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ10:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Free energy, Kinesiology, Panspermia. All three have a scientific and a pseudoscientific meaning. One is a disambiguation page, one explains the scientific meaning and has a pointer to the pseudoscientific one, and one explains the pseudoscientific meaning and has a pointer to the scientific one. This is the result of applying WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. You were unhappy with the solution in the third case (my take is that due to your field, availability bias leads you to think in WP:BUTIKNOWABOUTIT terms). [6] shows you that only a small percentage of readers of Panspermia move to the pseudo-panspermia page, showing that there is a good reason why it was done that way. You were wrong, and you have been blaming the people who were right since then. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would expect an article on a religion to describe, e.g., the foundational documents, the liturgy, the rituals, the tenets. Excluding believers would exclude the editors most likely to be familiar with the literature. As long as an editor is neither attacking nor proselytizing, I don't see a COI. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This just seems to be an argument against the entire concept of regulating COI editing... COI in general applies to the editors most likely to be familiar with a topic, for example the editors most familiar with Edward P. Exemplar are likely Edward himself, his friends, and his family... But we absolutely do not want Edward himself, his friends, and his family writing that article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally thrill when people who are less hostile than I to religions post at WP:FTN and I thrill when people who are more hostile than I to religions post at WP:FTN. Generally, I thrill at anyone posting at WP:FTN. Though I may object (sometimes strenuously) to others' positions, I welcome their positions being aired as it helps clarify Wikipedia editorial praxis. I may be singular in this, I understand. Someone with sage observational skills pointed out that I may simply enjoy having arguments more than others. But I have learned things from such arguments and I do think that these discussions have helped clarify matters. Can't there be different strokes for different folks?
Maybe a resolution could be adding a request in the FTN boilerplate that when people start a thread that they notify relevant WikiProjects?
If they're notifying the WikiProjects, then it's a content dispute, and so it should be handled by the WikiProjects, or else RfC. If the intent is that FTN is a general-purpose board for fringe content, then that's the domain of a WikiProject, not a P&G noticeboard. (And just because FT has a separate guideline page, does not mean it automatically needs its own noticeboard; and in a separate point, I'd be interested if there's anything in FT that is not entirely redundant with the extensive RS and OR guidelines.) SamuelRiv (talk) 07:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? All noticeboards except ANI/AN are for content disputes. The stated purpose of FTN is to "help determine whether [a] topic is fringe and if so, whether it is treated accurately and impartially". There is quite a bit in WP:FRINGE which is distinct, for example WP:FRIND, WP:NFRINGE and WP:PARITY. Bon courage (talk) 07:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are free to propose FTN for deletion if you don't like the way it is set-up. Others have done so in the past.
I think the consensus has generally been that it's okay to have a centralized discussion board that brings together people who have a general interest in topics that are relevant to WP:FRINGE. WikiProjects have remits which go well beyond that sort of thing.
Neutrally worded notices to noticeboards or projects are not canvassing, and it's always possible to post to different noticeboards and projects if you feel that greater participation would help. So if something is posted to FTN there is nothing stopping you ftom adding notifications to projects that you feel are involved. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°20:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate is also relevant, but in a very different way. That's the case in which being the target of something like Death by a thousand cuts results in the community blaming the victim for not being able to tolerate even more "minor" annoyances.
I feel like there is some of that going on above. People aren't reacting here, as if from a tabula rasa, to the exact statements being made. They're reacting to long histories and perhaps what sounds like coded meanings or Dog whistle (politics). So, e.g., maybe you didn't directly say "having a religious belief is automatically a COI" – or at least not in this discussion – but other editors have said this, and you said something that reminded them of the overall climate on wiki. And now you're mad at them for noticing the overall climate, or for assuming that you agree with it, and anyway, how dare they be upset about something that upsets them?
If you haven't personally seen editors claiming that being religious is a problem, then I point out that there are l-o-n-g discussions open at ANI and COIN right now about whether being a member of a particular Christian denomination is a formal COI. Note that I'm not linking them because I think that having anyone in this discussion join them would be a bad idea – too much risk of us providing more heat than light, and all that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen anyone say that having a religious belief is automatically a COI, I've seen people say that religious belief or affiliation can be a COI and people say that it can't be. Nothing in policy or guideline seems to support the "can't" side while the "can" side is currently consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't remember seeing anyone claim that all religious beliefs are always a COI. I have seen editors say that having specific, uncommon religious beliefs (e.g., anyone who belongs to this or that 'cult') is a COI for any articles related to that subject area.
ArbCom disagreed in 2010: "For example, an editor who is a member of a particular organisation or holds a particular set of religious or other beliefs is not prohibited from editing articles about that organisation or those beliefs but should take care that his or her editing on that topic adheres to the neutrality policy and other key policies."
Editors with a COI are not prohibited from editing pages regardless so not sure if there actually is any disagreement there. The catch-22 is that if it is possible to identify the editor's religious affiliation from their edits alone then their edits aren't NPOV. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In what context is a COI editor actually prohibited from making edits? Incorrect identification is not an outing concern, so not sure why you would worry more about that than legit outing but OK. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect identification is a Wikipedia:Harassment concern. Earlier this year, you made false COI accusations about an editor – based on off-wiki information that turned out to be incomplete in important ways – that resulted in that editor feeling strongly pressured to disclose the highly personal situation that led to them being kicked out of the religion they were raised in. This is bad for Wikipedia, and it is bad for the falsely accused editors. You shouldn't have done that. IMO editors should be strongly discouraged from following your example.
COI editors are officially not prohibited from making all edits, but COI editors are officially prohibited from making most types of contributions. However, in practice, WP:Nobody reads the directions, and many of them are told by well-meaning editors that they shouldn't make any edits at all, and some of them are also told that if they do, then they'll be dragged to ANI or COIN for a criticism and self-criticism session. See, e.g., fully disclosed paid editors being told that simple updates for outdated information should be handled through the edit request system because "it's best" if paid editors never touch the mainspace. It is best – if your personal values prioritize purity over up-to-date articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well that suddenly took a person turn... These are serious aspersions and that is not my memory of what happened in what ways was the infomation incomplete? I would also note that those allegations turned out to be 100% valid, they were not in any way false. "COI editors are officially prohibited from making most types of contributions" doesn't appear to be true, as far as I can see they are not officially prohibited from making any type of contributions in particular. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Casting wp:aspersions is "accus[ing an editor] of misbehavior without evidence". You were accused of misbehavior for a specific course of events. I was not a part of this, it was not linked, and I don't really care, but I found the narrative easy to enough to follow that it seems to me that if I asked you both to spell out in detail the factual series of events, you'd agree -- that's why it's not aspersions.
Since the topic of this sub-sub-thread is COI, and the editor brought up this sad tale because it directly relates to COI, I also see nothing personal or uncivil in it. You state there is a factual lie or inaccuracy in the narrative, so that probably should be hammered on your own respective talk pages. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The catch-22 is that if it is possible to identify the editor's religious affiliation from their edits alone then their edits aren't NPOV.
okay, but I’ve been accused of being Falun Gong for my comments on FTN, so maybe nobody should be trying to divine the religion of editors on the basis of their edits?
like don’t get me wrong, if someone is editing a JW article with watchtower talking points that’s definitely an issue, but there’s little value I can imagine in trying to “gotcha” an editor’s faith and if their editing is a COI issue or otherwise problematic that can be addressed. Someone may simply have bad information and be editing on that basis. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ10:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If people's affiliation can be inferred from NPOV edits, then I'd say that's working-as-intended. People can be TBanned for repeated or blatant NPOV on contentious/vulnerable articles without any reference to COI -- that's the whole premise for TBans on stuff like Israel-Palestine (nobody would say that being a national from one or the other is a COI to edit respective articles). Political fervor is quite the driver of disruptive editing -- if that is regulated without COI then why are some here calling for COI for religion?
(fwiw, I'd argue "religious affiliation" is not usually the same as affiliation/membership in a specific church bureaucracy/org that is affiliated with that religion -- so for example one could argue CoS is a church-organization that is affiliated with dianetics philosophy/religion; then an employee of CoS has COI by existing policy. I realize that definition would put a monolithic-monocephalous church in a grey zone, but I'd again say NPOV is sufficient.) SamuelRiv (talk) 15:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I am 100% not endorsing any sort of on-wiki assertion or accusation of another editor's religion or political beliefs based on their editing habits (agreeing Warren above). I am saying such blatant NPOV edits can be called out for what they are, as they have been in every contentious topic area. (It's common also to call out poor or undue sourcing, synth, cherrypicking, etc. -- blatant bad behavior be blatant.) SamuelRiv (talk) 18:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The trouble with COI editing is it's often not "blatant", but like "dirt in the gauge" of the fine instrument in consensus forming. A !vote in a RfC here, a change of emphasis in an article there, and hey presto! POV achieved! The basic truth is that Wikipedia fails to deal with COIs because of its emphasis on the primacy of anonymity. The two are irreconcilable. Thus: the shit-show continues, and will continue for ever until Wikipedia gets a grip and turns into a serious Project. Bon courage (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
COI can be a subtle problem, but so can many other things. Someone attempting a subtle change in emphasis is not necessarily a bigger problem than editors who believe they're always right – and we have lots of those (including me, except that I really am always right!). If I have to choose between an editor who determines reliability on the basis of whether the source says the Right™ Thing and an editor with a secret COI who wants to slightly shift the emphasis of an article, I might not always think that the latter is the bigger problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be to misunderstand, fundamentally, the pernicious nature of COI. People may - on their own behalves - argue passionately in many directions. But when an external interest is exerting influence, the outcome of decision-making will depend of which interest has most sway. It is why serious consensus-making fora (i.e. not Wikipedia) tend to have stringent rules on COI transparency. Bon courage (talk) 19:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A subtle shift in article focus seems like a smaller problem than a big bias in source choice; ergo, I'd choose the editor who spends multiple years pushing for a small shift in focus over the editor who spends multiple years pushing to exclude good sources with the 'wrong' POV and include weak sources with the 'right' POV. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hah! Editors are wrong all the time, and preferring weak sources to strong ones is of course a common fault particularly in newbies. But here's the thing: editors with a brain and good faith will generally change their mind, modify their position or gracefully concede a point if they are presented with cogent opposition but have no skin in the game. They learn and grow. The COI editor will forever press Wikipedia to follow the line that they've been assigned, without deviation. I'd rather have an editor corps of messy but correctable human beings than apparatchiks dedicated to shaping content in some particular way so as to advance an outside interest. Bon courage (talk) 04:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But editors who do have skin in the game, but not of the sort that 'counts' as a COI, don't generally change their minds. They forever press Wikipedia to follow the line that they've personally adopted, without deviation, exactly like that irritating family member that you never want to hear talking about politics at any family gathering.
Also, paid editors are often temporary: eventually, either we come to a plausible compromise (and sometimes that 'subtle shift in article focus' is actually warranted, though not generally with the wording that the marketing department suggests), or the payer decides to quit throwing good money after bad.
People who feel aggrieved about something will argue for decades about their pet thing. I know one who is still upset that his mother had to pay inheritance taxes half a century ago. I don't know if he would agree that he's a "messy" human being, but I am convinced that if he were editing Wikipedia, he would not be a "correctable" one.
Or we could just have neither editor... Thats clearly the best solution in terms of improving the encyclopedia. It doesn't have to be one or the other, both the tendentious editor and the COI editor who doesn't respect NPOV can be shown the door if they don't change. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because sometimes figuring out whether Bad Thing #1 is better or worse than Bad Thing #2 is helpful to people. It can help people develop perspective and prioritize their efforts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:04, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The effect seems to be to excuse one of the bad things, why can't we just say that both are bad and should result in full or partial seperation from the project and which is badder is up to context and personal opinion? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I also agree that neither is best if possible, I am also always going to prefer an editor editing in good faith to an editor editing in bad faith. Loki (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, but few people, except blatant vandals, think they are deliberately trying to make Wikipedia worse. A paid agent may think they're making Wikipedia more accurate or fairer. A personal POV pusher may believe they're making Wikipedia better by giving a little more respect for an idea they believe. Even the parents who show up at Talk:Santa Claus every December, to ask that we not "ruin" Christmas by telling their kids that Santa Claus isn't a living, breathing magical person think they're trying to make Wikipedia better.
That's why the rule is Wikipedia:Assume good faith: assume that the other person – no matter how stupid, misguided, or wrong they may actually be – is actually trying to do something that in their opinion will make Wikipedia better. To put it more bluntly, when the white supremacists show up with their racist garbage, we assume that they're trying to make Wikipedia better according to their own way of thinking, even though we don't agree that their garbage actually makes it any better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, which is why I think COI editing is so egregious, because it's one of the few kinds of editing that is actually in bad faith. Loki (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LokiTheLiar, imagine that someone works for a big company. In the actual marketing department, no less. This person notices that the number of employees in {{infobox company}} is several years out of date. Imagine that the employee corrects the error.
You didn't provide the piece of information we would need to know in order to determine that... Their intention. It is most likely that their intention was to promote their company therefore their intention was to hurt wikipedia, but unless you provide that piece of the puzzle the question is (perhaps purposefully) unanswerable in a straight manner. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How so? The use of wikipedia for promotion unambigously hurts wikipedia, thats why we explicitly ban it (WP:PROMO). Anyone who intends to engage in promotion, advertising, or recruitment intends to hurt wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I disagree with him on many COI things, I'm behind HEB here. Correcting an error in order to promote an organization that is paying you to promote them is a bad faith edit and harms Wikipedia.
To see why, imagine that article has three estimates in it for number of employees: one that is too low, one that is correct, and one that is too high. The COI editor only corrects the one that is too low despite being aware of all of them. Is that a good faith edit? Loki (talk) 19:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LokiTheLiar, see the comment where I've already addressed the biased assumption that more employees is better for a company. (Hint: Layoffs usually result in stock prices going up, not down.)
Also, what if there aren't three estimates? What if it's just one wrong number in an infobox, and the COI editor is merely correcting a simple factual error?
Just because a person with a COI could make an edit that is intended to harm Wikipedia – or, more likely, that is intended to help the company and doesn't care whether Wikipedia is helped or harmed – doesn't mean that every single edit made by that person is inherently harmful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Simply replacing inaccurate or outdated information with accurate, up-to-date information unambiguously helps Wikipedia.
"As of 2012, the company had 190 employees" → "As of 2024, the company had 165 employees".
"As of 2012, Alice Expert was the CEO" → "As of 2024, Bob Business was the CEO".
Correcting a factual error is not inherently promotional.
Whether more or fewer employees is better (and therefore potentially promotional) depends on how you interpret that. For example, is having slightly fewer employees a sign of good management leading to greater efficiency and productivity, or is it a sign of a shrinking, struggling company that can barely make payroll?
Have you ever heard of a win–win scenario? On those occasions when what's best for Wikipedia happens to match what's best for the company, then Wikipedia is not actually harmed by the company getting what they want.
There are many circumstances in which what's good for the company is bad for Wikipedia, but there are also circumstances in which what's good for the company is also best for Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In re Thats true , but every promotional edit they made would be inherently harmful. They could also make other edits but thats not really the point.
No, that really is the point. Exclusively promotional edits are harmful, no matter who makes them. A good edit made by a Bad™ person is still a good edit. A bad edit made by a Good™ person is still a bad edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The win-win scenario is when the COI editor makes an edit request like they're supposed to... If they make the edit directly thats a loss for wikipedia. We don't scrub the edits of confirmed COI editors, your argument would only make sense if we did. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Break
the editor who spends multiple years pushing to exclude good sources with the 'wrong' POV
I've definitely seen this habit at FTN, and it was one of the impulses for this thread. If FTN has decided their specific understanding of a topic, collectively, is the "correct" one then attempts to address that are often met with accusations of POV-pushing, attempts to introduce FUD for WP:PROFRINGE purposes, etc.
The example raised above is a pretty good one for this. Wikipedia has a hard deliniation between Panspermia and Pseudo-panspermia, but this hard deliniation doesn't exist in the literature and "panspermia" is regularly and routinely used to refer to what Wikipedia calls "Pseudo-panspermia". Note that this isn't "the scientific literature is actually down with the fringe theory" but rather "the specific terminalogical bifurcation that Wikipedia is using is an artifice of Wikipedia and risks confusing readers who come to Wikipedia on this topic from credible sources."
No amount of academic, primary, secondary, etc. sources that show that "Panspermia" can and is regularly used to refer to it landed with anything other than a wet thud and accusations from some of the FTN core. Even in the Tukdam thread that's on FTN right now there's a "Well we can't consider that credible source" (which is, to be fair, actually arguable on the sourcing, but not cut-and-dry per WP:RS). There seems to be this attitude of absolute certainty that arises from FTN which outpaces the ability of people whose personal expertise is more rooted around fringe theories to evaluate.
You asserted, with the "absolute certainty" you are projecting onto others It’s absolutely erroneous to say “panspermia is a fringe theory”. You were shown the sources to show why this was wrong and had to concede "The Science Direct link you provided is certainly evidence that both terms are used". In such cases Wikipedia need to manage the terminology and use hatnotes to guide the reader, and this is what happened. Consensus was achieved and things improved thanks to FTN. Yet here you are rewriting history and somehow it's the fault of "FTN" that you were in a muddle. It's all very odd. Have you considered the problem isn't with FTN at all, but somewhere else? Bon courage (talk) 14:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you have an issue with me personally take it to WP:ANI.
Here is the thread which is being very creatively represented above for anyone who'd like to evaluate it for themselves. FTN's "consensus" on this topic was exactly what @WhatamIdoing seemed to be worried about.
In fact the thread sprawled to here where the issue was resolved. If I took every editor that was wrong about something to ANI I'd never be out of the place (and would have to take myself there regularly!). I think we can all agree this thread has been a waste of time. It was always going to be since there was no evidence and no proposal. Perhaps this can - for all our sakes - be the last time this particular FTN complaint pony is taken round the park. Bon courage (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Religion is ubiquitous in most parts of the world. While many if not most of the various religions of the world hold beliefs that are not provable by science, they are just that beliefs. While all fringe theories could be categorized as beliefs, not all beliefs are fringe theories. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 18:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A religious belief that has no effect on the rest of scholarship is just that. For example, a claim that pure land exists is generally so far removed from physical reality as to be basically just worth documenting as a major belief in Buddhism. However, there are those Buddhists, some of which are more active than others, who claim that there exists a literal Mount Meru that one can actually discover here on Earth. That is a WP:FRINGE theory. jps (talk) 20:25, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true. Firstly, it's not true because the policy defines a fringe view as "an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field", not according to whether the view is provable by science.
Secondly, it's not true because it's goes against common sense. Views in non-scientific fields (e.g., art criticism, history) are never provable by science and can still be classified as mainstream or fringe. It's nonsense to say that since, e.g., fictional characters can't be scientifically proven to exist, then all views about them are fringe. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Religious views are never mainstream by definition, no single religion is that large and they don't generally agree on anything. The field of Religious Studies isn't some sort of free for all, even claims which are purely religious can be fringe. The belief that a fictional character was real would be fringe, the mainstream view is that fictional characters are not real. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Religious views are certainly "prevailing views", since 85% of the world subscribes to some sort of religious views. Those religious views include ideas that are very widely held (e.g., that humans are different from other animals in some important way; that justice and peace are desirable values; that long-term happiness is something people should seek; that there are good ways and bad ways to relate to others). The belief that justice is better than injustice is absolutely "not provable by science", but it's definitely mainstream. Science might help us understand what actions could achieve specific forms of justice, but science (i.e., excluding the quasi-religion of scientism) can't tell is that justice is good.
When considering not just "the prevailing views" but specifically the "mainstream views in its particular field", we prioritize scholarly sources. For example, most of the world believes in ghosts. The scholars in the relevant fields, using the methods of that field don't. Therefore, "ghosts are real" is WP:FRINGE and "ghosts are not real" is mainstream. There is no limitation here about the relevant field needing to be a scientific one.
Also, let's go back to that fictional character. Othello (character) is a fictional character. What was this fictional character's racial/ethnic background intended to be? There are two mainstream views. Neither are provable by science. Neither of them are WP:FRINGE. A view that "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field" might say that Othello was Irish, and this would be FRINGE. A view that aligns with the mainstream views in the field might say that Othello was a brown-skinned Muslim from the Mediterranean coast, and this would not be FRINGE. But the relevant fields are literary studies, theatre studies, and history, none of which are science. Each view on that question is declared FRINGE or not FRINGE without any reference whatsoever to whether the view is "provable by science". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's been another exchange on FTN in the last few days that I think really highlights my issues here. A user (@ජපස:) removed the entire section on academic study from the Tukdam article. They removed a link to a UW-Madison research group publishing on this topic using brain scans and other methods. He dismissed their papers out of hand as not being justified in the article with
It's a bit misleading to claim it's been studied by "western academics". It's actually been studied by religious believers.
Which is obviously not how any of this works. We cannot just decide that the religion of an author is basis for us ignoring the fact that they're publishing in serious journals when research scientists with an American university (not just religious scholars playing with brain scans for fun without any idea what they're doing) and an even passing knowledge of the field of Buddhist Studies will make it very clear that scholar-practitioners are the norm in the field. And this is why FTN should tread cautiously with assuming they know the fields they're editing in. "Well the author is a Buddhist and can't be trusted to write about Buddhism" is not a reasonable take, especially in the context of an academic field that both routinely stands up to outside scrutiny of their scholarship and which is typically rife with people who both practice their faith and publish on it in critical, objective ways.
Why are FTN regulars deciding that the religion of authors is enough to justify the removal of entire sections when we're talking about accepted peer-review publications in Forensic Science International: Reports, Culture, Medicine, and Psychiatry, and Ethnos? Why are we tolerating the dismissal of credible, non-Bealles-list peer-reviewd sources on the grounds of the religion of the author when there's zero evidence whatseover of wrongdoing that could have implicated the study in question or its authors? Wikipedia is worse for this type of editing, incredulity and personal (ir-)religious philosophy shouldn't be dictating the content of articles.
I feel it's an important detail here that the results of the studies in question didn't particularly support wild, fantastical conclusions that warrant incredulity. The claim was "Meditating dead monks are still somewhat alive" and the paper's conclusion was "He's dead, Jim." It feels like the religion of the authors is the whole basis for the objection of inclusion here, which is not at all how WP:NPOV and WP:RS work, but on FTN it can. This is, to me, simply open bigotry, which is something I've been expressing some frustration at here.
Neutrally worded notices to noticeboards or projects are not canvassing
When a noticeboard starts having its own interpretation of the sites rules and it operates on those, and does so on obscure parts of Wikipeida that may not have many eyes on it, then yes, the official canvassing policy aside if can very much feel like "I want to bring this issue only to people who have the same interpretation of policy that I do." Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ09:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on community action earlier this year, Warrenmck is not the one with the heterodox interpretation. A thread at ANI a few months ago ended in a topic ban for a user who was rejecting citations to academically published material about Islam merely on the grounds that the academics were Muslims. Excluding content cited to academically published material about Buddhism merely because the academics were also Buddhists is the behavior and interpretation that's out of step with the community. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 16:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I genuinely feel a little crazy with these exchanges here. Between this and the discussion above about how all religions are totally fringe I feel like some of FTN isn't engaging with, well, WP:FRINGE in good faith when it comes to topics of religion, which can result in article quality being reduced, which isn't what any of us want from noticeboards.
It's pretty clear that, while maybe not a huge systemic thing, several editors are using FTN to grind a particular axe. The is probably where things like attacking a credible scholar on the basis of their faith without any evidence whatsoever of impropriety comes from as far as I can tell, because it's certainly not coming from WP:FRINGE or WP:RS. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ14:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Over the years, I have rejected a variety of publications about Isra' and Mi'raj on the basis of the apologetics of the author. The fact that academics who are arguing in favor of the literal truth of that story are Islamic is absolutely relevant. It is also the case that the research program Warren is whining about did not result in any solid publications. Not any that would pass WP:REDFLAG certainly. The article text just linked to their research group and press releases! The fact that this guy from UWisc is a devotee of Tibetan Buddhist approaches to meditation while claiming that Buddhists who are good at meditating continue to meditate after they are dead is WP:BOLLOCKS influenced by a blinkered religious devotion. It's the equivalent of Young Earth Creationism or Hindu astrology. jps (talk) 15:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
claiming that Buddhists who are good at meditating continue to meditate after they are dead: Except that apparently isn't what the source claimed, or at least it isn't what was in the article text. The article text that you twiceremoved (wholesale, with no attempt at just trimming) stated that the study did not detect any brain activity in clinically dead tukdam (italics added). As Warrenmck said that the conclusion was "He's dead, Jim." What's so 'bollocks' about that? And what's so un-solid about the source, a research center at a secular state university (University of Wisconsin-Madison)? You pay no apparent notice to the secular university setting of the source nor to the utterly plausible results of the research (that no, there is no detectable brain activity from the dead monks); all you offer is your apparent revulsion that the researcher was a Buddhist. It's frankly bigotry, and the way you let it influence your editing is disruptive. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The suggestion that jps has any "apparent revulsion" is unwarranted here. Are we reading the same source? This one appears problematic to me, and the article content being sourced to it should not have relied on such a source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that section should definitely be trimmed but obviously not removed. It's a real and secular study that didn't find anything WP:EXTRAORDINARY, so saying that it existed and didn't find any brain activity ought to be utterly uncontroversial. Loki (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The EEG on a corpse was hardly the only thing they claimed to "test". The entire enterprise is an ideological juggernaut that includes things like asking the asinine question as to whether the corpses decay at different rates depending on their status as meditators -- claims which are so ridiculous as to be nearly impossible to operationalize. The lack of serious peer-reviewed work in serious journals on this attests to that. The attempt to argue that there is any legitimate research interest whatsoever into whether there might be measurable signs of this religious belief is belied by the fact that WP:FRIND sources are totally absent discussing this. jps (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of serious peer-reviewed work in serious journals on this attests to that.
From the research group you removed from the article as a "shit" source:
it certainly looks like It is also the case that the research program Warren is whining about did not result in any solid publications. may have been a bit off the mark? Thanks for accusing me of "whining" though.
C'mon. I see a list that includes predatory and pocket journals, FrotiersIn, MDPI, and moribund backdoors to avoid peer review by competent scholars. And you were already warned at WP:FTN about promoting Frontiers as a potential WP:RS. These are terrible sources for claims about corpses decaying. This is basically WP:PROFRINGE. jps (talk) 15:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or not. Frontiers in Psychology is a highly rated journal.[7] Their WP:Impact factor is more than twice the average for the field. Beall's List said that "Some of their journals have a very poor peer-review; some are fine." WP:CITEWATCH says that these journals should be evaluated "case by case", which is significantly different from "anything and everything from MDPI is a terrible source" or "anything in MDPI is basically PROFRINGE". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Culture, Medicine and Psychiatry is ranked 90th percentile by Scopus[9] and is indexed by MEDLINE.[10] Their impact factor is high for "culture" and low for "psychiatry".
Ethnos is rated 93rd percentile[11] and has an impact factor a bit above average for anthropology.
Religions is rated 90th percentile[12] with an impact factor that would be typical for sociology (I don't have numbers for religious studies specifically).
Frontiers in Psychology is ranked at the 78th percentile[13] and has an impact factor that's double the typical level for psychology.
I would accept a recent review article, within the usual scope of their field, from any of these journals. I wonder if the problem here is less about the source and more about what the source is being used for. For example, the 1991(!) Cult Med Psy article might be more useful for "Some people have a different concept of death than modern medicine!" than for "It is a definite fact that even though his heart stopped beating last week and he hasn't moved or breathed since then, he's still alive". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can definitely get behind an argument that we need to look at what sources are used for. My main interest is preventing some sort of WP:PROFRINGE of the empirical claims associated with Tukdam. There is obvious interest in these subjects from a cultural studies, anthropological, sociological, and comparative religious perspective. The issue I have always had with this particular research group is the attempt to claim there is legitimate research interest in Tukdam within the context of neuroscience, physiology, and even quantum physics(!). There is some shoehorning that I see by the group itself and even more that got laundered into previous versions of our own article text. jps (talk) 14:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Before I listed Tukdam at WP:FTN, it had been discussed at WT:DYK[14] and transcluded onto the talk page from Template:Did you know nominations/Tukdam. Two editors other than myself had supported the removal of the "Scientific research" section. The primary author of the article restored it.[15] Above, it was mentioned that FTN discussions should be linked from relevant notice boards. Issues about Tukdam had already been raised Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism weeks before hand.[16] I've added links to both this discussion and the one at FTN just now.[17] If I noticed a problem (a faith-based belief being misrepresented as an evidence-based hypothesis), but I "didn't grasp the language" used by a specialized field, I think posting to a relevant notice board was the correct thing to do. Despite conflicts, do you think that the changes made since the issue was raised improve or worsen the article, Warrenmck? Rjjiii (talk) 16:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most of the changes made so far have been good, and was quick myself to question Tricycle as a source being... not great in the context of that article. None of this has any bearing whatsoever on an editorial decision being presented as based on the faith of the author. An identical conclusion could have been arrived at in any other way, but it's not on me or other editors to discern if just open bigotry is actually masking an in-depth discussion which warrants consideration. If those points exist, then editors should cite them and not the religion of a given academic.
Even if I wholly agreed with every change made (which for the most part, minus the removal of the scientific studies section which I'm still unclear why you and others are calling for its removal, we do agree on) nothing would change in that lines like
It's a bit misleading to claim it's been studied by "western academics". It's actually been studied by religious believers.
You're not going to stop my evaluations of religious nonsense by posting to village pump. I'm allowed to make judgement calls in the cause of protecting the encyclopedia from hyperbolic and farcical religious claims. jps (talk) 15:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Warrenmck here. Wikipedia isn't pro- or anti-anything, except pro-verifiability and neutrality. Everyone is allowed to make judgement calls within Wiki rules and consensus (which terms as hyperbolic and farcical do not imply). It's also worth examining what is actually notable about these beliefs; that they exist among a community, or that it wouldn't pass peer-review? A majority of the time with any movement/philosophy (religious or other), it's the former. We could do this about almost anything, like Jesus' resurrection or optimism/pessimism. AnandaBliss (talk) 17:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that often you want to say something like "Some of these people believe ____". Sometimes an article needs to say "____ is not factually true" (e.g., List of common misconceptions). And I would add a third category: "____ was sensationally claimed in the news/has become a common stereotype in popular culture/was a widespread internet meme in YYYY". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, the imprimatur of a "research group" was being laundered as a way to claim that there was "serious investigation" into whether or not meditating champions would be able to continue meditating after death and thereby prevent their corpses from decaying. This is pretty WP:BLUESKY nonsense. I do not see how it is at all defensible. jps (talk) 00:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You again removed the section in question, with the edit comment of
Get better sources if you think there is anything here. These sources are shit.
There's a content dispute here, but also a fundamental behaviour and WP:OWN issue. At no level is how you're engaging with this appropriate. It feels like you have far more of an issue with the fact that the research group exists at all, rather than any substantive issue with their findings. UW Madison and their research group focused on this are credible, and they've published their results in journals like Forensic Science International: Reports, Culture, Medicine, and Psychiatry, and Ethnos. They are a perfectly acceptable secondary source. Ideologically driven editing has no place here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ08:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we're turning this into a conduct discussion forum, I'd say the bigger problem is that you're supporting poor content based on a poor source. I don't think of this as being a common issue with your work, and my good-faith guess is that maybe your involvement in this conduct dispute is putting up some content blinkers. You've repeatedly restored, for example, a wiki-voice claim that a named individual "remained in tukdam for 13 days". That's obviously not appropriate. If there's a systemic problem at FTN, can we pick cleaner examples? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong opinions on the exact verbiage of the section before you changed it a lot recently. I have strong objections to the removal of the entire section on absurd grounds that the source isn't good. Not once have you actually raised a specific concern with the source other than what amounts to "C'mon, look at it" which several of us have and have seen no particular issue with.
If there's a systemic problem at FTN, can we pick cleaner examples?
I frankly think the issues around the sources being rejected due to what appears to just be personal incredulity is pretty much is the cleanest possible example, here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, while I also don't think that line is worth including:
a) I think the idea that a whole long section should be blanked because of one bad line is obviously absurd.
b) The source in question I also agree seems fine. Notably it does not endorse that line.
Like a lot of FTN content disputes I'm not entirely sure why it's even happening. It feels like the "skeptic" side, huge airquotes, has dug their heels into an aesthetic commitment so hard they haven't even actually bothered to look at the source. Loki (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source explicitly endorses that line, saying "Ling Rinpoche remained in the state for 13 days, exhibiting a fresh life-like appearance in the humid subtropical climate of Dharamsala until the thirteenth day when initial decompositional signs appeared." In context, "the state" unambiguously refers to the tukdam state. As for "whole long section should be blanked because of one bad line": what a weird and untrue guess at the motivation for the removal. Which edit summary hinted at anything of the sort? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that sentence would benefit from a re-write. For example, consider "This study began in 1995 after a discussion between neuroscientist Richard Davidson and the Dalai Lama about the meditative death of Kyabje Yongzin Ling Rinpoche, who was said to have remained in tukdam for 13 days because his body did not show visible signs of decomposition until then." WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would go even further with who was said to have remained in tukdam for 13 days because his body was said by monks and other believers to have not showndid not show visible signs of decomposition until then. jps (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does the source make that claim, or is that your editorialization? Because when I glanced through it I didn’t see the bifurcation in claims you’re making. I can imagine a whole bunch of environmental variables factoring in but you seem very hung up on a form split between what the source says and what you personally deem credible, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask editors to filter papers through your personal incredulity as a standard before editing.
It’s not like the implication in any of these papers is “a specific theology is true!” and in your race to editorialize you’re possibly inventing caveats and conclusions not in the papers in question.
The source begins the narrative with the phrase 'The Dalai Lama described' and follows that description for a while, so jps's paraphrase would seem to be a fair summary and not editorialization. MrOllie (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About They are a perfectly acceptable secondary source: Journals aren't primary/secondary/tertiary sources per se; they're publications in which multiple individual primary/secondary/tertiary sources are published.
All first-time reports of scientific research are primary sources for the results of that research. Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean good. An article that provides comments on the research would be a secondary source, even if those comments say something like "Look at this huge waste of research money" or "All the experts we contacted thought this was a huge joke" or "Here's more proof that peer review doesn't indicate importance, and journal editors aren't immune to clickbait fodder", and even if that commentary is in a popular/non-academic publication. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I echo you in emphasizing that a single research paper is a primary source -- if there's no other research coming out, then I'd be very cautious about mentioning such a paper at all or its conclusions (and especially not summarize them more than they choose to summarize themselves in their own abstract and conclusions sections).
U:jps had an odd comment about the credibility of the UWisc group (with sentiment echoed by others) that included The attempt to argue that there is any legitimate research interest whatsoever into whether there might be measurable signs of this religious belief is belied by the fact that WP:FRIND sources are totally absent discussing this. This seems odd in that one of the issues of wp:Parity is the relative lack of typical RS that challenge fringe claims; so here a typical RS is critically assessing fringe Tukdam claims, yet therefore this becomes in itself a reason for prejudice against the RS's reliability?
I don't see that objective scientific inquiry needs to be defended (even if the investigator has personal biases, which we all do). Nonetheless, as the EEG paper outlines (as have a couple more I've seen investigating similar stuff), investigating this sort of thing raises all sorts of interesting methodological questions in several fields. Usually the conclusions of these sorts of papers is not the most important part. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the evaluation of a claim should be contextual and methodological, absolutely, and that's also why the "he's dead, Jim" conclusion is unimpressive to me. To take another example, there are a number of null-result papers published in Journal of Scientific Exploration that would otherwise be used to prove certain wacky ideas "taken seriously" which, y'know, isn't true because even those WP:BLUESKY conclusions don't receive notice. To behave otherwise risks us becoming cherry-pickers. I take WP:REDFLAG to be my lodestar. The idea is that you want multiple serious, independent relevant researchers arguing there is a there there before Wikipedia should be going on and on about that kind of "they take us seriously argument".
Shroudies are another good example of this. The amount of ink spilled about what is obviously a medieval forgery is absurd, but the faithful will point to the ludicrous number of "investigations" that start from square one and apply yet another test to the thing as evidence that science takes them seriously. It doesn't.
I feel that this reaction is a degree of defensiveness that is not compatible with building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia goes by the sources and not whether the existence of the sources will cause someone somewhere to believe that they are being taken seriously by the scientific establishment. Like, the thing you are describing is just not a thing that Wikipedia can or should consider at all. Loki (talk) 03:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are tasked with deciding whether a source is reliable for the claim it is making. If there are few to no citations that notice a WP:PRIMARY source, we typically do not lean heavily on it. jps (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure who this is directed towards, but I think this is something of an inversion of my point. The "righting of great wrongs" is typically what I see being pushed by those who are arguing, "hey, this WP:FRINGE idea deserves more consideration." jps (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pack's comment sounds fair to me. We see editors in some areas trying to make sure that readers are "protected from" certain ideas. We're happy to invoke NOTCENSORED for (e.g.) sexual content, or whether Santa Claus exists, but we are less inclined to expose readers to POVs that we don't agree with and that we believe should be considered a "scientific fact/falsehood".
In such cases, saying "This idea exists" is interpreted by editors as "This idea deserves more consideration". In this case, you can look at the facts and come up with several responses: "Huh, those people think meditation happens in the heart, so it was stupid of them to test the brain". Or "Look at the stupid research ideas people spend money on". Or "I wonder why they tried to apply medical technology to their spiritual practice". But the worry from the RGW-ish editors is that somebody might read it and say "Wow, finding out whether dead bodies can still meditate must be a worthy scientific endeavor instead of a candidate for the BMJ's Christmas edition. I believe in science, so now I believe in meditation after death!" WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not as concerned with reader reaction as I am with the possibility that Wikipedia functions a role in laundering claims that there is scientific endeavor found here. I am hoping to evaluate the worthiness of article text on the basis of WP:NFRINGE. I argue that the proper amount to include for many claims that strain credulity on the basis of a WP:Notability vs. prominence basis is zero. jps (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am with the possibility that Wikipedia functions a role in laundering claims that there is scientific endeavor found here
There very clearly is, though. This isn't the only neuroscience group doing work with Buddhist monks, and that doesn't mean that the researchers involved in those research groups are making, laundering, or even agreeing with any theological claims. This isn't a particularly unknown thing among neuroscientists as far as I know, and it speaks a lot more to "interesting brains" than validating any kind of theology. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ19:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you might want to go down the hall and knock on the doors of a few neuroscientists and ask what if they have heard about performing EEGs on corpses on the basis of tukdam and whether there is a legitimate research question to answer by doing so. I'll do the same. Then we can report back. jps (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My issue is following the logic. You want to have an article about a fringe topic. By its nature, fringe theories tend not to have quality independent RS that debunk them. (Various reasons for this -- but even those who consider fringe theories in themselves worth their time may decide ignoring them is a good strategy; others feel they should be positively debunked; afaik there is not an objectively "correct" position given basically identical goals.) That said, when such an independent RS comes about, you suggest the RS is unreliable for the sole fact that it investigates a fringe theory. Whether you feel that, ethically or whatever, any scientists should investigate fringe theories ever, is your own thing, but it has and will occasionally happen, and scientists will do it in a certain way, and I don't know how you would expect it to be done differently. And without those occasional RS, the only source of parity (or parody) on fringe topics is from snarky self-qualified skeptic bloggers. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, exactly this. We're obligated to use the WP:BESTSOURCES on a topic, and clearly a study saying "he's dead Jim" is a stronger source than a science blogger snarkily conjecturing "he's dead Jim", regardless of what you feel about the beliefs of the people who did the study or if it was worthwhile to do it in the first place. Loki (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as an aside, remembering one particularly well-written informal review, Andrade and Radhakrishnan 2009 made a point that there are very good theological and philosophical reasons for rejecting or debunking claims of empirically-testable spiritual intervention on Earth. (Indeed, once the spiritual becomes scientifically empirical, it by definition is no longer spiritual.) A number of religious authorities have learned this lesson, as have religious scientists. A faithful Buddhist may (or may not) have every reason than any skeptic to want to see the empirical claims of Tukdam disproven. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do. I think that providing facts (including facts about opinions, spiritual beliefs, perspectives, and errors) is an important service to the world. I do not subscribe to the belief that all publicity is good publicity or that describing the wide diversity of people's beliefs is promoting fringe subjects. I also don't believe that it's Wikipedia's job decide which beliefs are worthy of being learned about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are at slight differences of opinions about where we draw the line for WP:NFRINGE. I am just less of an inclusionist and like to be dragged kicking and screaming over the line to articlespace presentation. jps (talk) 20:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's even more odd to me in this whole mess of a discussion is that a lot of the research motivations are clearly independent of the religious or fringe-adjascent claims; it's just a desire for more data on the state of the brain at the moments around death. Couple that with a population eager to probe that specific thing and you have a basis for a fairly ethical approach to a very sticky study subject. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ20:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not at all convinced that these are the motivations, but I also don't think the motivations ultimately matter. What does matter is the lack of third-party notice. jps (talk) 20:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It feels like the goalposts keep moving. We can't say this; there's no scientific research. Oh, there's scientific research, but we still can't say this, because we need someone to comment on the research. Oh, there was a television program commenting directly on the research? Well, we still can't say it, because the television program isn't truly independent. Oh, now you've got an article in a reputable daily newspaper analyzing the television program's analysis of the scientific research and that doesn't appear to be written by someone with any personal connections to this subject and which also didn't interview anyone even remotely involved in this? Well, that still won't do, because, um, I'll think of something, but a self-self-published website like Quackwatch would be infinitely preferable to whatever sources actually exist.
A documentary called Tukdam: Point of Death, apparently. The newspaper describes it as "The strangest programme of this week — or of any week for a long time" and provided some analytical commentary (e.g., comparisons to the popular Christian tradition of ascribing saintly values to physical Incorruptibility). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have been trying to watch this documentary, but have failed. Maybe because it only appeared on Irish TV? Unclear. If you know how I can watch it, I would be grateful. jps (talk) 13:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't attempted to watch the documentary. I think the newspaper article provides enough information about it to give me an idea of its contents. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is definitely true that one of the biggest complaints of WP:PROFRINGE is that Wikipedians dismiss their proposed sourcing as unreliable. To wit, I don't think I've seen much in the way of reliable sourcing that post-death brain activity is a hot topic except among those religious believers who, as part of their faith, believe that this is a possibility. jps (talk) 21:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliability isn't about whether it's "a hot topic". Reliability is whether we trust (aka are willing to "rely on") a source for a given statement. Whether something's a hot topic is a matter for NPOV rather than reliability.
We see this all the time in medical topics. A loussy primary source actually is reliable for a statement like "In YYYY, one study found that pouring gasoline on cancer cells reliably killed them". The problem is that the space in an article should be focused on less stupid forms of cancer research (because even if Wikipedia has an infinite supply of pixels, reader attention does not have a correspondingly infinite number of minutes to spend on reading the article). In this case, if you put "tukdam" into your favorite news search engine, basically all the sources are trying to explain whether it can be proven to exist via modern technology. Ergo it is DUE for the article mention something about this subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the model of "putting tukdam in your favorite search engine" to test for whether a perspective on a topic deserves inclusion is valid. I think WP:FRIND asks us to consider broader impacts. jps (talk) 01:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure: You should put "tukdam" in your favorite search engine and see which independent sources you can find. If your favorite search engine happens to be news.google.com, you should find a couple dozen sources that were not written by any of the authors of the EEG study. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:43, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is all that I find when I do that:
Big Think starts out with "It’s definitely happening, and it’s definitely weird. After the apparent death of some monks, their bodies remain in a meditating position without decaying for an extraordinary length of time, often as long as two or three weeks." [18]
The only other article is from mindmatters.ai which is a publication by the Discovery Institute(!) I beg your forgiveness that I stop right there.
So one article that starts out pretty miserably is all that I'm seeing, but maybe you're getting better results than I.
So it feels like, unintentionally, the exact situation I’m griping about has played out at full volume here. A subset of FTN regulars has shown up first attempting to shut down any discussion (I can’t help but notice I’ve been told I’ve been “warned” for citing a source someone here didn’t like, and told I’m being WP:PROFRINGE for the same) and refusing to avoid strawmanning, expounded on personal extra-policy values of “not accidentally giving a topic credibility” when the entire argument around that is something failing a vibe check (rather than anything to do with WP:RS) and in general just engaging in WP:RGW behaviour.
The editorial standards several users here advocate for are patently absurd. We are not qualified to evaluate if peer-reviewed publications have subtle implicit biases that poison the data in a way that the referees, with their actual qualifications, at various journals weren’t able to spot. We are being told that any scientific investigation into religious claims must be treated as fringe, even when the results are exactly what would be expected and make no extraordinary claims. We are meant to take it on face value that this entire endeavour is an attempt to legitimize a religion using science, and we must ignore specific and reasonable claims as to why scientists might actually be interested in this and must instead condemn academics for even daring to look at this.
This isn’t policy, this isn’t how Wikipedia works, and this is actively worsening articles. Editors in here have made it abundantly clear that they’re explicitly and openly not engaging with these topics in good faith, which goes back to my entire point posting this here where active derision of topics relating to religions seems to be the only acceptable approach to much of FTN. Given that this has come up with multiple editors, it does seem like there’s possibly a culture problem at FTN that warrants addressing and possibly greater oversight.
I’ve seen this come up time and time again when the actual understanding of a topic differs from the popular understanding of FTN. We saw it at panspermia, where a segment of FTN decided that plain as day sources right in front of them were secondary to their personal understanding of a topic. We’ve seen it at the Cunning folk and Mormonism thread, where editors viewed “cunning folk” as an attempt to whitewash magic and no amount of “this is the term used in academia” seemed to counter those laundering concerns. We see it here again, where the personal incredulity of editors who cannot begin to believe that neuroscientists may have a secular, academic interest in a specific type of brain activity. I can’t help but notice how much of the arguments here hinge on “this research group is taking something seriously that they shouldn’t be” without a single actual substantive argument to back that up. We’re being expected to take those arguments as serious and meaningful when they’re merely an opinion of an editor. In all cases WP:RS instantly caves to WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is made pretty explicitly with
Do I want to have an article on a fringe topic? I'm not sure I do?
This isn’t improving Wikipedia. It’s making certain topics a nightmare to edit on because as it stands FTN cannot be wrong and FTN users are never wrong in their understanding of fringe. Evidence of a misunderstand is always just another WP:PROFRINGE user trying to concern-troll away good articles with PROFRINGE content and anyone who disagrees is, well, see the first large reply this post elicited.
To me, it seems pretty arrogant to declare that a slightly contrary WikiPhilosophy of your fellow Wikipedians "isn't improving Wikipedia". This is the kind of rhetoric I see in radical inclusionist spaces often, and it strikes me as inflammatory at best and toxic at worst, which feels like a bit of WP:KETTLE irony considering your complaint is largely that you (or those who follow closer to your editing philosophy) are feeling put upon. I should hope that people advocate for approaches because they think they are right. Differences of opinion are likely to occur, and the solution doesn't have to be thesis/antithesis. If you think that you aren't being heard, then maybe consider the massive length of this discussion. jps (talk) 13:15, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think 90% of this is just common content dispute, with the added complication that Warren keeps describing the policy-based objections to his proposed content as IDONTLIKEIT or "merely an opinion" or lacking in substance. That's pretty typical as well, though it is exhausting. If our goal is to get back to the core concern, which I understand to be allegations of a systemic conduct problem at FTN, I'd suggest that identifying examples where Warren isn't personally part of the dispute might get us some distance from the common content disputes. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the policy-based objections to his proposed content—When the purportedly policy-based objection in a particular case was 'the sources were created by Buddhists' and ignores all other context (that the research was conducted through a research center at a secular university, that the reported result was the rather normal 'the dead monk is dead'), and when the general concern is said to be with patterns of objections that on examination boil down to 'the source/author can be connected to religion', I am hard-pressed to see the substance or policy basis of the objection. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edit summaries at Tukdam don't seem to haven't gotten much beyond claims like "get better sources" and "This is all WP:FRINGE nonsense claims. Unless non-believers find it worthy of notice, it is not worthy" (the nonsense claim that dead brains don't give off brain activity?). And in this discussion, comments like describing the author as "this guy from UWisc is a devotee of Tibetan Buddhist approaches to meditation" and must therefore be unsuitably "influenced by a blinkered religious devotion", or saying that he (JPS) is protecting the encyclopedia from hyperbolic and farcical religious claims (the unblinkered, religiously devoted act of saying that... dead brains gave off no brain activity?) For where JPS hasn't hammered at the religious connections of an author, I think Loki has described the situation well in saying JPS seems to say that the existence of the sources will cause someone somewhere to believe that they are being taken seriously and that this, somehow, makes the sources unusable for our purposes on Wikipedia. To quote another editor from a recent discussion, JPS continues to characterize situations as one click more severe than is necessary; the source's tone being more generous to Buddhism than an individual Wikipedia editor might feel becomes a reason to consider the whole enterprise, seculary university and all, as untrustworthy, and this despite our community having a guideline that reminds us that a reliable source can be biased; we just try not to reproduce the bias.Add to that the expressions of pride in being uncooperative with other editors (preferring "to be dragged kicking and screaming", professing to "enjoy having arguments", and taking on a brusque, short tone that doesn't strike me as treating other editors as respected colleagues rather than as ideological enemies), an attitude of behavior that's explicitly contrary to Wikipedia's expectation that we be reasonably cooperative, and Warrenmck's exhaustion seems pretty understandable. All this time and energy gets put into trying to assuage JPS's concern (except JPS is not interested in being assuaged; JPS explicitly would apparently rather have arguments and be dragged kicking and screaming) instead of getting put into doing as Loki brought up: trimming the content to be its best and most relevant, neutral version. Instead, by repeatedly pushing total exclusion of even the notion that anyone checked for brain activity (and found none!), we instead remain in the Discuss portion of the suggested WP:BRD cycle. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 15:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the source's tone being more generous to Buddhism than an individual Wikipedia editor might feel
It’s worth pointing out this sort of conciliatory tone is pretty common when working with minority ethnic/faith groups. It’s a bad look for researchers to get permission to study a topic within a minority community and turn around and (from the perspective of the community you’re working in) insulting them. “Yeah, their religious belief is wrong” isn’t exactly a shining example of research ethics.
More like the conciliatory tone is pretty common for researchers in general. Researchers tend not only to take a neutral tone, but I've often seen that if they're in a paper that's going to objectively demonstrate not-X, they will take a tone that is generous and often deferent to the position of X (among other reasons to indicate that they investigated any alternative hypotheses). (My favorite example of this is from papers on dog and cat cognition, which the authors typically introduce with something along the lines of 'It is scientifically obvious that cats are reproduction machines motivated solely by food, with never any objective evidence of emotion', and the paper proceeds to prove that cats do love their owners. 'Further research is recommended.') SamuelRiv (talk) 03:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More like the conciliatory tone is pretty common for researchers in general
oh, for sure. Just when it comes to minority groups, especially those who have faced substantial hardship, that tone goes into overdrive. When it comes to scientific investigations of spiritual practices, especially when done in cooperation with monastic/preistly/ordained communities it’s best not to make them feel that working with you is directly undermining their own faith/beliefs/identity (etc.) Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ03:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Calling for better sources and reverting because content violates FRINGE are both good moves. The sourcing was poor, and FRINGE was being violated. JPS clearly articulated at the FTN discussion and at the talk page at least one way in which the content violated FRINGE, and it had nothing to do with anyone being a believer. Warren reverted to restore the content saying that JPS's reason was just "not liking the research group". I raised REDFLAG concerns, which Warren dismissed as "personal incredulity". I'm not saying anyone's conduct here was perfect, but I have an extremely difficult time seeing W's action as clearing the "reasonably cooperative" bar you mention. Incidentally, "we instead remain in the Discuss portion of the suggested WP:BRD cycle" isn't true for the "checked for brain activity (and found none!)" part of the disputed content. It's been sitting in the article for a few days now with at least rough talk page consensus. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My current opinion is that WP:Fringe itself may be better placed as an explanatory essay, with original P&G sections woven back into their core P&G: Parity under NPOV/DUE, NFringe under Notability, etc.. The role of FTN is overlapped by existing noticeboards, which handle fringe theories and editors regularly without much issue. As a cultural matter, it may be that the referral of editors to FTN, the labelling of their content as "fringe" as opposed to a violation of general policy, itself invites the long often-heated content debates that seem to most often characterize the board.
Closing a noticeboard is a big step, (as would be rearranging a P&G page, but that's the lesser one), and I'd like to spend more time watching there before making a definitive judgement on my own part, but I do see the problems identified, and this is a possible way to try to address them. SamuelRiv (talk) 13:39, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if closing FTN would actually help. When a group of editors feels like their interests are served by working together, then it's pretty difficult to get them to stop. We could close FTN and discover that Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism becomes a lot busier, or that coordination is happening off wiki.
What I find strange is that this stems from the Tukdam article saying in wikivoice that individuals where still alive after they had died. No-one should be disrespecting religious beliefs, but the context for such things should be that they are beliefs.
If editors have been making uncivil or disrespectful remarks that should be rectified, editors shouldn't interject their own opinions on other people's beliefs it's not helpful or constructive. Equally editors shouldn't be stating beliefs as if they were factually true. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°19:54, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, at no point have I objected to removing that line. The only thing I objected to was a total section blanking. Me undoing the blanking wasn't a tacit endorsement of the whole text that was there before and I agree that religious beliefs shouldn't be presented in wikivoice and that line was inappropriate there. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ20:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Editors restoring content are endorsing it, by restoring it you are taking responsibility for it. Any section with that in was inappropriate, if it had been restored after improvements that would have been another matter. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°20:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted a section blanking and immediately took it to the talk page as clearly it was contentious. That's not out of line. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ20:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. The section was blanked with "removing WP:FRINGE claims" as the sole edit comment. It is very clear that the entire section isn't just fringe claims and it's very clear that the user in question who blanked it has a significant ideological axe to grind they seem unable to leave out of their editing. Here's the diff. Considering how very blatant the bigotry motivating these edits has been, a revert and the comment on the talk page was appropriate. Re-reading this to pull the diff I actually think an ANI would have been appropriate a while ago for some of the open bigotry and how absurd the WP:OWN situation has gotten but by now I think it'd just be rehashing this argument and go nowhere. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ21:55, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still think it may be warranted, but I’m holding off. We have here two issues:
1) a possible systemic issue with FTN and religious topics
2) an editor who is openly editing with prejudice as a base, flinging around accusations, and inventing new site policies to get their way in a content dispute
at this point this whole thing feels… weird. One editor is blanking sections they ideologically disagree with, attacking a source for the source’s religion which has nothing to do with the results, going around “warning” editors for citing sources they don’t like, and just moving goalposts over and over to create a specific interpretation of policy that by all appearances is designed to arrive at a specific foregone conclusion.
But the discussion has become “Why didn’t you remove that one line when you restored the article? You restored bad faith page blanking so now you’re responsible for it.” and broader discussions around the article. The problem is so much time has been spent discussing the behaviour of one (or two, to include me in fairness) editors that the entire point has either been lost or poisoned, because whatever issue with FTN I was bringing up here never got to this extreme with “no they’ve got religion so we can’t trust them” as a basis for editing that people mostly just seem fine glossing over?
If I’m the wrong here I’ll own up to it, but “I don’t see a reliable source for the claim that there’s academic interest in this topic” in response to a research group and a half dozen peer reviewed papers is cut and dry not engaging in good faith. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ00:43, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that other editors are mystified how you think it is a problem to say that these REDFLAG claims have been debunked. Compare:
Homeopathy repeatedly says there's scientific evidence against it.
Hoxsey Therapy says there's scientific evidence against it.
Faith healing says there's scientific evidence against it.
But Tukdam – Whoa, we can't say there's scientific evidence against that. That might make people think this religious belief was a valid subject of scientific inquiry!
I know you support the first three. What's so wildly different about someone claiming that a special person can channel divine powers vs someone claiming that an equally special person can meditate after their physical death? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One very small part of what jps removed was about scientific evidence against tukdam, sort of. That brief bit was outweighed by caveats about the research barriers, wikivoice claims that tukdam is real, and promotional content about the research team. The article is better off now that we briefly summarize a published study, but removing the problematic content was an incremental improvement over the status quo ante. Any supporter of the good bits of the content could have partially restored the good bits, just as jps could have partially removed the bad bits. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about that. Comments from jps say all of this content is an attempt to argue that there is any legitimate research interest whatsoever and an attempt to claim there is legitimate research interest in Tukdam within the context of neuroscience. He objects to providing information that someone could use as a "they take us seriously argument". He does not want Wikipedia to say anything that supports any claims that there is scientific endeavor found here. He does not believe that there is a legitimate research question to answer, so he does not want Wikipedia to report that people have done the research. He opposes having Wikipedia acknowledge the verifiable fact that these studies were done, regardless of their outcomes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The disputed content started with "Western scientific interest has grown", cited to the self-published website of the research group in question, so many of those concerns are well-founded. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:27, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was my impression that except in the case of violations of copyright or BLP, leaving a page in the status quo ante state is considered reasonable during content disputes. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:09, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point I think it's not a bad call, and I'm a regular at FTN. There's too much of a power user concern, and it either needs to not be a full on noticeboard or it needs to be diluted with people who share a goal of improving wikipedia and addressing WP:NPOV concerns but who can do so without a personal religious views very explicitly dictating their editing. Its function is better served as a noticeboard but the commitment to Wikipedia policies is not as strict as it should be for a noticeboard. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ18:33, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But what's being done here is exclusively slandering scholarship as pseudo-scholarship, purely on the basis of the topic and the faith of the author, despite results which are 0% unexpected or WP:PROFRINGE. @SamuelRiv summarized how I see this whole situation best:
You want to have an article about a fringe topic. By its nature, fringe theories tend not to have quality independent RS that debunk them. [...] That said, when such an independent RS comes about, you suggest the RS is unreliable for the sole fact that it investigates a fringe theory.
I think they're meant to be concerned with Pseudo-scholarship, but what we're seeing here is a: at times a majority of FTN is about religious pages and b: FTN is inventing their own conception of pseudo-scholarship and declaring perfectly reasonable academics guilty of it.
See also: the whole panspermia thing
I think there's a lot of "FTN is ____" in here which is a nice ideal but doesn't actually pan out to the experience of FTN. Note I'm not calling for getting rid of it, I just think that FTN by its very nature attracts people who are more on the militant side of skeptic in a way that gets disruptive. I've left it pretty well alone but scroll up and look at the "warning" I received for citing Frontier, then go look at FTN at the context of the "warning" I received coupled with how many times here I've been accused of being WP:PROFRINGE for not damnatio memoriae-ing a peer-reviewed source and tell me if this behaviour is compatible with the norms of Wikipedia or building a better encyclopedia. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ19:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Warrenmck, i can't help but recall this thread from more than a year ago. I could not care less whether otherkin are viewed as a religion or not, but am just hanging out to find sources for a hard-working group who make a positive impact on the project. If you are at such a hair trigger and on such a mission to get others to conform to your worldview then no wonder you are finding it "exhausting".Looking at some of the threads you've pointed to i would probably agree that Stapley shouldn't be dismissed so readily and to take a closer look at the content. But i would probably say that content does not justify keeping the current title and it should probably move to 'folk magic' or similar. I disagree with "the regulars" at FTN sometimes, no big deal.As far as getting Egon Spengler and his UW Madison group's research into the article, well, there is a think tank behind it and it is in partnership with the Dalai Lama. So even tho a bunch of neuroscientists probably think he's a nice guy and all reason to be cautious. A lot of your arguments seem to come down to inclusion simply because something has been published and insistence on that basis. Maybe try something different because that tactic is one seen probably 2-3 times a day by "the regulars". I shudder to think what some of the content would look like if there wasn't opposition to that view. The test here for such speculative (admittedly so in the papers) is whether or not other researchers take notice. That's pretty objective and from what i've seen mostly applied across the board on a wide variety of topics by "the regulars", but of course no one gets everything right all the time.fiveby(zero) 04:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I’ve also basically been working on rewriting the entire Otherkin article in that time, feel free to check its edit history. Like I said, I’m a regular at FTN and I try tackling a lot of the faith-centric stuff that comes up at FTN because I’ve got a bit of a formal background in religious studies. I may as well edit in a broad area I know, though I do mostly stay out of Mormonism threads since I don’t know it as well.
I’m not just complaining, I’m actively putting in the work to improve these articles. Let me be a little more clear about my frustration with this: I think FTN has one tool, a hammer, and has decided that they’re collective experts on identifying nails. It can simply result in worse quality articles, the reason I’ve brought up the Panspermia example here is it’s a very cut and dry non-fringe case of FTN just deciding that evidence cannot be allowed to counter their understanding.
well, there is a think tank behind it and it is in partnership with the Dalai Lama. So even tho a bunch of neuroscientists probably think he's a nice guy and all reason to be cautious.
I agree! But what’s happening here isn’t caution, it’s bigotry. It’s very clearly bigotry. I don’t see the benefit to sanitizing accusations of bigotry, because “these aren’t academics, they’re religious believers and we should ignore their output” is bigotry.
FTN is great with quack medicine, UFOs, etc. but the second the Venn diagram overlaps with spirituality or faith there’s this sort of gleeful attitude of taking the religious down a peg, and not just when it comes to editors but apparently authors of research papers. We have an editor in here accusing authors, baselessly, of academic impropriety, using that accusation to edit articles on the basis of open bigotry, and and I don’t know why we’re tolerating that. We’ve seen recent topic bans for that exact behaviour recently.
A lot of your arguments seem to come down to inclusion simply because something has been published and insistence on that basis.
You do realize the source being argued about here rejects Tukdam, yes? It’s at no level pro-fringe, an editor just doesn’t like the religion of the author and is just being disruptive on that basis. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ12:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very clearly bigotry? That is rather strong don't you think? Wikipedia's purpose concerns readers, information, and knowledge. I take these arguments expressed in opposition to your to be just that: views concerning readers, information, and knowledge; and how WP should work towards achieving that purpose. I have certain opinions concerning these matters which generate a negative reaction to, for instance, new-agers, postmodernists, evolutionary psychologists, and Canadians.Why should i care if a source rejects Tukdam? Applying that standard i would feel would lack objectivity and be a little dishonest. I try to be objective and honest but am probably as full of shit as the next editor.I'm sure "the regulars" would benefit from hearing about and adapting to my views on how they should edit, but somehow image that preaching to them about it would likely be an unproductive use of everyone's time. fiveby(zero) 16:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Buddhists make great academics up to the point they argue in favor of dogmatic religious positions in ways that WP:REDFLAG. Arguing that Tukdam is a physical or biological state is a common position of a very particular set of religious believers and, to my knowledge, exactly one American academic group housed at a secular institution is led by such a religious believer. To be clear, I find it admirable that he is open about his belief in contrast to the mess that we are in when trying to consider Ian Stevenson's undercover connections to theosophy. By the way, there is another research group in St. Petersburg, Russia -- but I haven't figured out what they are all about as the sourcing for their stuff is very obscure. jps (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why should i care if a source rejects Tukdam?
Because that’s the sourcing standard we actively want on potentially fringe topics? This is the only instance I can think of with FTN actively calling for the removal of evidence against a fringe stance. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ16:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't been around enough, then. We have removed loving debunkings (and accounts) of lots of extreme fringe positions on the basis of WP:NFRINGE. Just off the top of my head, editors gutted the article on modern geocentrism and replaced it with an economic redirect. jps (talk) 18:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This wasn’t a debunking paper. There were perfectly valid secular motivations. That you don’t accept them as truthful is a personal thing and not relevant to Wikipedia. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ20:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough on the example, but WP:AGF would be gaslighting myself here, at this point. You’ve made it excruciating clear you’ve got a serious prejudice here and you’re using it to inform your editing and I’m afraid I’m tired of pretending otherwise. As other editors have pointed out, it seems like you’re engaging in WP:WGR and accusing academics of impropriety on the basis of their religion in they absence of any actual evidence and constant WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT repeatedly in the face of secular interest in this topic.
If you can’t maintain WP:NPOV on these topics you can’t demand other editors treat your POV as neutral in the face of very direct and explicit claims from you to the contrary, and I’m far from the only person interpreting your statements as bigotry. I’m happy enough to just not engage with you at all if you’d prefer, but I’m done pretending there’s been a fruitful endeavour here (seriously, how many times have you directly accused me of being WP:PROFRINGE now? Or playing admin and “warning” me for citing a source you didn’t like?) or that this hasn’t just been you refusing to hear what people are saying about your behaviour here and pretending it’s just just me with an issue. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ21:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:AGF: "Assuming good faith (AGF) means assuming that people are not deliberately trying to hurt Wikipedia, even when their actions are harmful."
This is measured according to their own (probably wrong) idea of what would help Wikipedia. That means that if an editor believes (however wrongly) that applying a religious litmus test to sources would help Wikipedia, and so they apply such a test, then that editor is acting in good faith. (It does not matter whether the test is pro- or anti-religious.) You might call it "screwing up in good faith", but it's still good faith. Good-faith actions can be harmful.
The opposite of "acting in good faith" is "deliberately screwing up for the actual, direct purpose of hurting Wikipedia". The opposite is not "holds POVs that I find reprehensible" or "espouses views that, if expressed during a job interview, would constitute discrimination against a protected class in my country". That latter point is for Wikipedia:Civility, not for AGF. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One of FTN’s favourite pastimes is throwing AGF to the wind and openly explicitly running away editors who engage in ideologically driven fringe editing. Yeah, at some point it’s possible to just lose sight of being able to see how someone is viewing their own behaviour, sincerely, as helping build an encyclopedia. I’m only human.
The fact that an admin is cheerleading this bigotry to an extent is appalling, in my time here I’ve come to expect much better from Wikipedia. Maybe I’m just wrong here but I’ve firmly hit a brick wall here and should probably disengage and take a wikibreak. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ21:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's precisely correct. FTN probably does run some editors off. (I've run a couple off myself; discouraging would-be contributors who are net harmful to Wikipedia is not an inherently bad thing.) I don't think FTN is known for saying that these editors intend to be harmful; instead, they're known for saying that editors actually are harmful. AGF only requires us to acknowledge that most harm is a misguided attempt to help.
Compliance with AGF means "I reverted that because it's wrong" or "That's not appropriate content for Wikipedia" instead of starting it with "You intentionally vandalized Wikipedia on purpose!" WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, bad faith is a very rare problem on Wikipedia. In the context of FRINGE, far more harmful would be (say) a true believer, desperate that the world should be exposed through Wikipedia to their discovery that energy can be derived from a perpetual motion machine. Bon courage (talk) 04:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When the work in question is a primary research result, it shouldn't get more than a passing mention, regardless of its outcome. The only reason we might give it more attention is for FRINGE parity purposes -- if it is the best source we have to contextualize a pseudoscientific claim that is otherwise DUE in the article, it can be used even if it's not at the quality level we normally expect for scientific topics. However, what I suspect @ජපස is concerned about is that this research article really isn't the best way to contextualize pseudoscientific claims because a) it is at least partly sponsored by adherents, and such sources are directly discouraged in several places of WP:FRINGE; and b) using that source actually introduces pseudoscientific claims about tukdam that otherwise wouldn't be in our article, since it actively pierces the veil between religious belief and science that had been maintained up to that point (or at least would be easily achieved by simply removing the in-universe language, without needing any additional sources). By discussing scientific investigation of a religious belief, we're also presenting the pro-fringe position that the belief has any scientific basis at all; if we're going to do this, that position should either already be DUE (i.e. it has had significant secondary discussion by RS that don't debunk it themselves) or the study garnered enough secondary attention itself. But neither of those conditions is the case here, and furthermore the study has a clear conflict of interest in its partnership and predictably tries very hard to legitimize its (pseudo)scientific rationale. That its outcome rejects the fringe stance is irrelevant since the fringe stance apparently isn't even published reliably elsewhere and so doesn't need to be debunked. Also, to address something raised upthread, the "secularity" of UW-Madison is completely irrelevant when the authors themselves are obviously biased -- it's not like academic research on a drug sponsored by its parent pharma company becomes independent just because it's conducted by an unaffiliated university and published in an independent journal. We are contractually obligated to disclose that CoI for a reason. JoelleJay (talk) 17:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While this response makes more sense to me than JPS's, I also think that it shows the blindspots of Wikipedians in this area pretty clearly.
Specifically: what "veil between religious belief and science"? The religious claim is that a bunch of people who are clearly dead right now are not dead. When people make clearly false claims in matters other than religion it doesn't suffice for us to say that "Some people believe [clearly false thing]" without also saying "but [clearly false thing] is false". I believe that what you're advocating for is in fact WP:PROFRINGE in the guise of anti-fringe. Loki (talk) 18:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that there is a "veil between religious belief and science" is a Western viewpoint. It's like the one that says it's perfectly normal and desirable for people to separate their personal beliefs from their professional actions (think "acting in my role as a corporate officer, I say let's raise the food prices after the hurricane, because price gouging will make the stockholders rich" vs "in my role as a member of the community, I say let's keep the prices for necessities as low as we realistically can").
Well, maybe it isn't appropriate – at least not in every article – but we're always going to have editors who prefer WP:SPOV over NPOV, and many of them don't even know that's what they're doing. The thing about a worldview is that it's so all-encompassing and all-consuming that you don't even know how it affects you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is explicitly discussed in FRINGE. Notable perspectives which are primarily non-scientific in nature but which contain claims concerning scientific phenomena should not be treated exclusively as scientific theory and handled on that basis. For example, the Book of Genesis itself should be primarily covered as a work of ancient literature, as part of the Hebrew or Christian Bible, or for its theological significance, rather than as a cosmological theory. Perspectives which advocate non-scientific or pseudoscientific religious claims intended to directly confront scientific discoveries should be evaluated on both a scientific and a theological basis, with acknowledgment of how the most reliable sources consider the subjects.This article should be primarily covered as a religious belief, except where it makes claims about scientific phenomena. If the Wisconsin study is the only source putting forth the idea that tukdam is a scientifically testable phenomenon, that position is probably too minor for us to cover in detail. And we should especially not amplify the opinion of an adherent regarding its scientific potential, which is what that study does even if its results are negative. JoelleJay (talk) 21:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To expand: the problem with "debunking" a scientific claim about tukdam is that we only have the one study doing that, and that study is clearly non-neutral and presents tukdam as sympathetically as possible. That is not a good source for disabusing people of the idea -- which we introduce by discussing the study -- that tukdam might have scientific grounding or that the topic is even remotely debatable in science. Non-adherent readers could come away thinking that tukdam is scientifically plausible and "just needs more research done", rather than regarding it in the same way they would transubstantiation: as a purely spiritual concept that has no basis in physical reality. JoelleJay (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A claim that someone who is dead isn't really dead is transparently a scientifically testable phenomenon in a way that "Moses split the Red Sea thousands of years ago" is not. Loki (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the Vajrayana system itself doesn't actually claim a person is "still alive" or suggest that there is brain activity when in tukdam -- those are positions introduced by the study to rationalize it with science. The aspects of tukdam that should actually be disputed in our article are the claims of delayed decomposition, and yet the study doesn't actually address that and instead assumes the bodies they examined really had attenuated decay. They even credulously propose additional research is warranted:
It is important to note that even if tukdam is mediated by residual electrical activity in the brainstem, this activity may generate signals that are too weak to be detected on the scalp surface or not possible to resolve owing to the limitations of our field equipment. If signal were detected, we would still need other types of data to shed light on the possible mechanisms that link brain activity and external signs of tukdam. Alternatively, if activity (or in this case, lack of activity) in the brain postmortem is not a mediator of the reported lack of decomposition, other biological mechanisms could be responsible. In both cases, we believe that—in addition to lifestyle, medical, and practice history—collecting blood, saliva, and tissue to investigate other potential mechanisms is key. When such fluids and tissues become available, discovery-based science with large-scale metabolomics and whole epigenome arrays can be examined.
Is it really worth diving into the possibility that tukdam is scientifically plausible if our only source for contextualizing its plausibility is one primary study, published in a low-quality journal, by people with a CoI, that uses "brain activity" as its sole proxy for postmortem meditative state and heavily couches its negative findings by noting the study limitations (like that they couldn't even evaluate anyone sooner than 26 hours after death)? JoelleJay (talk) 00:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A claim that someone who is dead isn't really dead is transparently a scientifically testable phenomenon in a way that "Moses split the Red Sea thousands of years ago" is not They are both empirical claims. I don't understand the distinction unless you adopt the creationist canard, "where you there?" as a means to distinguish between "experimental" and "historical" science -- something which is so outside of the mainstream understanding of these epistemological endeavors as to be WP:BLUESKY pseudoscience. jps (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can go to the dead body and test if its dead, which is a very simple test to do.
Conversely, while it's unlikely that a miracle happened in the distant past, it's hard to actually prove that scientifically. Loki (talk) 16:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I'm all on board for debunking pseudoscience, including religious pseudoscience. I just do not think a weak study sponsored by adherents disproving a single claim that the belief system doesn't even make itself warrants more than the handful of sentences it already has in the article. JoelleJay (talk) 16:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Conversely, while it's unlikely that a miracle happened in the distant past, it's hard to actually prove that scientifically. This is actually a pretty good object lesson for why experience dealing with fringe theories may help in providing context for how we might treat such things at Wikipedia. There is no evidence for any miracle happening in the distant past or right now. It is not "easier" to "prove" (a concept that itself is not exactly a way we approach topics in science) dead bodies are dead than there was no supernatural splitting of the Red Sea. They are both facilely the null hypotheses, and arguments to the tune of differentiating between one flavor of incredulity versus another is what we end up dealing with all the time at FTN even as fringe theories are, by definition, those ideas which are on the borders of plausibility and there is no consistent metric for demarcating which tests are easier or harder to show that.
We often get that kind of Russell's teapot argument in the service of WP:PROFRINGE that says because all that matters is the evidence, if there is no evidence then there is nothing that we can say about whether an idea is plausible. This just is not how the corpus of scientific knowledge works. You don't get to have easy versus hard tests. All are equally unlikely and all suffer from the same problem of being outside the realm of possibility when it comes to the sum-total of our worldview. You don't get meditation after death. You don't get a split Red Sea.
I see a lot of "FTN" being used as a collective noun, as in "one of FTN's favourite pastimes is throwing AGF to the wind". As someone who sometimes uses that noticeboard, I guess that's directed at me, too? Because otherwise why not specify who you're talking about? And if you're talking about one or more specific people, that's a matter for ANI, not VPP. Almost 2500 people have edited that page, with nearly 1200 watchers. There are some heavy users, but the top 10 editors have only made about a quarter of all edits. At the end of the day, there's gray area where people may disagree whether something deals with purely theological beliefs or whether it touches on something empirical/falsifiable/scientific. If someone is repeatedly bringing topics to FTN that fall squarely on the theological side, beyond the gray area, then deal with that person. I could be wrong, but I just don't see a consensus to get rid of WP:FRINGE or WP:FTN happening any time soon. Nonetheless, a concrete proposal would be preferable to repeated accusations directed at a large group of contributors, especially when the closest thing to evidence has concerned just a couple of them. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 22:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this should have been an ANI. As I said above, what I came here to raise has never gotten to the extreme it has in this instance, and that’s derailed any fruitful discussion of wider systematic issues.
We both know well enough there’s a cadre of regulars, but the situation in the case that’s come up here has basically removed all ability to look at a wider issue with nuance, though the behaviour of some of the other regulars in here did help make that case a bit. After this situation I’m now of the opinion that FTN should be merged with WP:NPOVN. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ22:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a recognizable tactic to attack a personified "FTN" as a proxy for this OP's perceived enemies. Textbook WP:ASPERSIONS. So yeah, this may be better at ANI but not for the reason the OP thinks. This quixotic campaign has been going on for too long across too many areas to be ignorable for much longer. Bon courage (talk) 04:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just ANI me if you sincerely believe that, since you’re just teasing threats of it anyways. If my behaviour is out of line here let’s evaluate it and if sanctions are warranted they’re warranted. That’s sincere, I know my utter exasperation with you and jps hasn’t lead to my finest edits. You’ve been nothing but openly hostile and dismissive from your first reply here and your insistence that I’m on some kind of quixotic crusade falls flat in the face of me not being the only one seeing the problem here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ05:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no intention to "ANI you", but might contribute if you end up there. Nobody else is seeing "the problem" here because there is no "the problem" stated, just a vague meta-complaint about "FTN" (initially framed as a question about religion and scope) that has valency for a small number of other users' various stances. What your basic complaint seems to boil down to is that one or two editors disagree with you on various points and have the temerity to argue their case, perhaps forcefully! There is a fairly broad spectrum of approaches to editing Wikipedia you know, and it is really not an issue if some editors fall outside the narrow band other editors prefer so long as they remain within the broad spectrum of the community as a whole. Bon courage (talk) 05:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're one of the editors who's bound your own take onto the meta-complaint. Hence your statement of "the issue" is different to anything the OP has stated. Bon courage (talk) 05:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since Warrenmck saidWe cannot just decide that the religion of an author is basis for us ignoring the fact that they're publishing in serious journals when research scientists with an American university, I don't see how I'm as far off the mark of anything the OP has stated you claim. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:48, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A problematic campaign has gone on for too long across too many areas, but it's not Warrenmck's. The troubling campaign is the effort by a small number of editors to decide whether or not to cite sources by applying religious tests to the authors. Moving into the realm of the hypothetical, it could be right to not cite X source; it could be right to leave out Y content; but it isn't right to do so for the reason that Z credentialed scholar operating in an academic setting is [insert personal attribute, e. g. a certain race, religion, gender, nationality, etc.]. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Classic WP:ASPERSIONS ("a situation where an editor accuses another editor or a group of editors of misbehavior without evidence"). It's hard to comment without evidence but it's not at all unusual for sources to be disqualified or regarded with suspicion on Wikipedia because of their authors' record, context, and stated beliefs (e.g. certain researchers for Morgellons, Chinese research into TCM and Russian neuroscience in general). Is there some kind of religious exemption? Bon courage (talk) 05:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are not 'classic aspersions'. You have not included in consideration quotations provided elsewhere in this thread that constitute evidence and posts that explain the evidence.An author's context includes things like academic training and university posting, and members of the community seemed to arrive at a relatively strong consensus in an ANI thread from this year that considering a relevantly-trained and university-posted author uncitable for [topics related to X religion] solely because of being an adherent of [X religion] was disruptive to the point of being a reason to topic-ban an editor who applied that train of thought to Islam, removing and objecting to citations of university-press-published content about Islam solely because the content was written by Muslims. I think it'd be safe to guess that Warrenmck would agree with me that we're not lining up to defend a proselytizing or devotional publisher like Chick Tracts; the goal isn't to say that no scrutiny should be applied to books printed by "Convert People to X Religion Press". Rather, the concern is with saying that academics don't count as academics if they have a religious background, as in the example It's a bit misleading to claim it's been studied by "western academics". It's actually been studied by religious believers, when the religious believers were also trained, credentialed, and posted at a research center of a secular state-run university. I wouldn't consider that a "religious exemption" to the necessary consideration of record and context so much as "it seems bigoted to say Muslims can't be qualified, trained, credentialed, and trusted authors on something to do with Islam even when they have academic postings at universities or that Buddhists can't be qualified, trained, credentialed, and trusted authors on something to do with Buddhism even when they have academic postings at universities". Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
jps makes an interesting point. Referring to religious researchers into a fringe/religious topic as just "academics" would be a kind of POV omission in many circumstances no? Devout Catholics on the Turin Shroud? Scientologists on e-meters? Mormons on Joseph Smith? Christian Scientists on animal magnetism? Fundamentalists on the age of the Earth? All seems fair play for concern especially where WP:FRINGE claims are in play. And I agree it's not simple, all kinds of contexts for a source apply too. The "problem" here seems rather the push to deny that Wikipedia editors can raise these concerns and argue their case. Bon courage (talk) 06:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
where WP:FRINGE claims are in play: And when fringe claims are not in play? The report at issue concluded that despite what some Buddhists believed, no, monks who try to meditate while dying don't display any post-mortem brain activity—dead monks, in fact, exhibit all signs of being dead. It is one thing to discount, say, a Catholic historian who says 'the Turin Shroud is definitely authentic'. It's quite another to discount a Catholic historian saying things like 'X traditional belief about the Shroud of Turin is false' Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When FRINGE claims are not in play then FRINGE is not a consideration and FTN not an appropriate venue. But this is a thread about FRINGE things at FTN. In general claims of something require better sourcing than claims of nothing, if that 'nothing' is just the default null hypothesis. Bon courage (talk) 07:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When FRINGE claims are not in play then FRINGE is not a consideration and FTN not an appropriate venue: That's good advice.But this is a thread about FRINGE things at FTN.: Is it? This has been a thread that is, at least in the OP, about worries of there being an attitude that religions should be treated as any other fringe theory and there are regular calls to edit religious articles in a way that seems to be fairly openly hostile without necessarily having regard for whether content is actually 'fringe'. After all, the particular example source much discussed in this thread has been one in which the empirically fringe claim made by some adherents ('dead monks mediate, their brains still work') was not empirically endorsed by the researchers. The source instead concluded 'when he died his brain stopped doing anything'. And yet an editor explicitly considered that non-fringe-ness irrelevant to deciding to regard it as suspect and unciteable (the words used being the "he's dead, Jim" conclusion is unimpressive to me). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After all, the particular example source much discussed in this thread has been one in which the empirically fringe claim made by some adherents
I think it’s also fair to point out that in contrast to many articles like this FTN gets involved in, not one editor here is taking a WP:PROFRINGE stance (accusations aside) on the content of the articles, so I’m hard pressed to actually see any fringe editing here beyond what was there at the start with editors uninvolved in this entire process.
I think raising Tukdam as it was written at FTN was reasonable, the article had some sources and phrasing which were inappropriate and I was the first editor to remove some of that content and raise Tricycle as biased in FTN. What follows wasn’t just fixing the article, but the open hostility to the article topic we’ve seen time and time again.
For what it’s worth (for Bon), I don’t see where we’re disagreeing at all and think you’re actually managing to articulate my perspectives a bit better than I can filtered through exasperation Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ18:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to comment without evidence but it's not at all unusual for sources to be disqualified or regarded with suspicion on Wikipedia because of their authors' record, context, and stated beliefs (e.g. certain researchers for Morgellons, Chinese research into TCM and Russian neuroscience in general). Is there some kind of religious exemption?
If I may, "context" bears much weight here. Just like any other argument you can make in this vein, there is a fine line between analyzing the reliability of individual authors based on their work and what their peers have to say about it, following a complete chain of logical inferences—and skipping that work, going with the latent "vibe" based on the intersection of categories visible about the author (independently if in tandem with the reputation of the relevant institutions). The latter approach amounts to bigotry. Remsense ‥ 论06:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree; it's complicated. And at the other (wrong) extreme I can remember a push at one time to ban any research on COVID-19 if the authors had a Chinese-sounding name. Generally there are factors suggesting a source is reliable that can outweigh any reputation an author might have, but at the same time there are entire large fields of "medical" evidential research Wikipedia puts in the bin no matter how esteemed the publisher or how peer-reviewed the paper because of the field itself (e.g. homeopathy). WP:ECREE is also a factor in this; and the idea that dead people meditate is rather ... exceptional. Bon courage (talk) 07:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A claim that dead people have been scientifically or technologically proven to meditate would indeed be exceptional. A claim that a religion says that a few dead people meditate, OTOH, is no more exceptional than when a religion says that people are mere manifestations of the universe, or that people are being reincarnated through the millennia on a path towards enlightenment, or that people have immortal souls.
AFAICT though, the the objection isn't to the religious claim, but to mentioning that science says that these people are just plain dead, according to every physical measurement they've tried so far. We've got a 526-word-long article that contains only a single sentence about modern scientific research, and even that was removed at one point. These are not difficult claims that require special skills. The religion says part of the body stays warm, so stick a thermometer on it and see if that claim matches reality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nonetheless, a concrete proposal would be preferable to repeated accusations directed at a large group of contributors, especially when the closest thing to evidence has concerned just a couple of them.
Look at how my interactions have gone so far in here with the user’s I’m concerned about the behaviour of and ask yourself for a half second why I’d open myself up to more of this. I’m already at the point of a wiki break and am just sticking around now in case Bon decides to ANI me so I don’t get accused of simply not responding to that.
It doesn’t appear to matter what I actually say, what a few people want me to have said gets hot replies and derails any possible discussion, and this entire thread gets derailed. And that’s not in my head. Scroll back up to the top and look at the fixation on faith healing and other things that make empirical claims when my entire thesis was very explicitly about pure theology and a secondary thing of religious intolerance. I don’t thinks it’s even possible to go back to the first point here and the second point I believe has become self evident. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ05:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the distinction was as clean as you thought there wouldn't be all this fuss about Tukdam, right? Your invocation of "religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim" is a false dichotomy. You can't expect other editors to use it a basis for discussion. Bon courage (talk) 05:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Tukdam article wasn’t posted when this thread went live and I raised it as an example of the intolerance issue, not the pure-theology issue, though did mention it in the context of FTN being tactless and inexpert.
Your invocation of "religious history and theology, as opposed to a specific empirical claim" is a false dichotomy.
You added the word history there, as history is most certainly not theology. And in what possible way is a belief in something utterly unfalsifiable the same as a claim that can be measured and analyzed? It’s a perfectly reasonable distinction. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ05:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added nothing, but copy and pasted the bold bit of your first post to this thread, which I assume was intended to be the main thing you were raising. So all this time you've been complaining editors aren't engaging with your post when you aren't even aware what you wrote? Bon courage (talk) 05:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the user’s [sic] I’m concerned about the behaviour of ← and here we have it at last. You're concerned about particular user behaviour. So why is that being raised in an opaque way at VPP? Bon courage (talk) 05:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m genuinely unsure what gotcha you think you just stumbled across. I think you’re so caught up with seeing me as some kind of enemy that you’re not taking the time to read what you’re replying to, a pattern that seems to go quite a ways back in this thread. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ05:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think of you as an "enemy" at all. But this long drawn-out campaign you're waging as proxy for an apparent spat with one or two editors (maybe me? I don't know) risks exhausting the community. I really really don't think you should accuse anybody of not reading what they're responding to with quite so much 'egg on your face' (above)! Bon courage (talk) 06:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But this long drawn-out campaign you're waging as proxy for an apparent spat with one or two editors
What? Have you considered exactly how many of the things you’ve been at me for in this thread are utter products of your imagination? You pointed out where I made an embarrassing mistake and I immediately owned up to it, but you’ve constantly represented arguments I’ve made any way except by actually assuming I’m not hiding my real motivations. Have you considered the possibility that I’m sincere, acting in good faith, trying to stop disruptive editing, and dealing with a fair amount of direct and baseless accusations because of that? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ06:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're "hiding your motivations", rather that your just being very coy about what you mean (which might be that you think a "cadre" of users A, B and C are problematic and need to be sanctioned).
Have you considered the possibility that I’m sincere, acting in good faith ← of for sure you are. But I also think you're wrong. Wrong about how the WP:PAGs apply and wrong about how the community operates. Bon courage (talk) 06:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're "hiding your motivations", rather that your just being very coy about what you mean
I think it's important to remember that, in the big picture, Wikipedia's handling of fringe theories is working appropriately; see [20] in particular, which goes into depth on how good our handling of fringe topics is. (See also [21][22] for coverage.) I can understand that it is sometimes frustrating or that WP:FRINGEN can sometimes be overbearing, but I'd be strenuously opposed to any significant changes to how it operates when it is, largely, working. Dealing with the flood of fringe material on the internet is difficult, and Wikipedia is one of the few places that has coverage saying we've managed it properly despite being open for everyone to contribute; WP:FRINGEN is an important part of that. (Also, just from a skim, huge swaths of the above seem to be about disputes between a few specific editors who believe each other guilty of misconduct; that's not an issue for WP:VPP at all, and shouldn't be turned into a discussion of FRINGEN as a whole. Conduct issues with individual editors should be taken to either WP:AE or WP:ANI as appropriate.) --Aquillion (talk) 15:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point we're making is that we tackle fringe topics well enough, or even in the majority of the cases, without or in spite of FTN and/or WP:Fringe. And at least one of your citations cut to the point:
Steinsson 2023 makes zero mention of FTN (talks about "noticeboards that are frequented by large numbers of Wikipedians" and specifically AN, NPOVN, and BLPN), and only a cursory mention of WP:Fringe, but the bulk of the paper talks about core policies, with NPOV being central -- this may be a methodological choice.
Matsakis 2018 Wired is about Gerbic's Guerilla Skepticism, which has come under ANI scrutiny in recent years. I'm not sure if anyone should go down this rabbithole of stupid internet drama, but here is one dumb blog link. The article also makes no mention of FTN or WP:Fringe, or of any noticeboard or P&G (i.e. the role that noticeboards and policies play in general -- it's essentially praising the administrative supereffectiveness of an off-wiki cabal). My main point is that I'm not going to put much consideration into a puff piece about an off-wiki coordinating group compared to a more objective reading from the previous paper.
Cooke 2020 Wired talks neither about WP:Fringe nor FTN nor any noticeboards.
To continue on FTN, a snapshot of the noticeboard front page: I make the following measurement of its behavior as a content-conflict resolution noticeboard, versus a WP:Canvassing board as OP suggests in the title. Currently, I count 6 threads in which editors on all sides of the dispute were notified of the FTN posting/discussion in a timely manner, versus 4 threads in which they were not, and 4 additional threads which could not be evaluated in this manner. You can check my work on my sandbox. Additionally, in my opinion, on threads in which all participants were not notified and were not present, there was insufficient (i.e. nonexistent) encouragement by other editors on FTN on threads to ping them.
While this is a very small manual survey (slow as I have to check the discussion pages on the individual articles), I believe it reflects poorly on FTN compared to other noticeboards, and lends some support to OP's accusation that FTN is being used a great deal, but not exclusively, for canvassing. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like many noticeboards (e.g. BLPN, NORN), FTN does not have a requirement for notification in all cases, though editors are required to notify others if they mention them specifically. If there's appetite for strengthening the requirement, we should probably discuss at WT:FTN. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, I think, that people are far less emotionally invested in BLPN, NORM, etc. A lot of skeptic editing comes from people who, understandably, view themselves as skeptics in their everyday life. That’s to say it can be a part of someone’s identity in a way that we see with other POV editing but don’t tend to see with more policy-centric noticeboards. This can especially bleed into religion articles as a lot of self-identified skeptics are a little militant in their dislike of religion. I think this is why there’s so much pushback to the notion that a: WP:FRINGE cannot be applied in an openly hostile way to religion (not just religious content being added to articles, which obviously axe) and b: this sort of head-in-the-sand WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT if it turns out some long-held anti-fringe stance is actually more nuanced than originally thought.
Basically FTN isn’t acting like a noticeboard for policy issues, but a wikiproject for people with strong skeptic stances. Therefore I don’t see how strengthening the notification requirement solves the issue of what can beer into POV editing, because I suspect that notifying would just result in business as usual, plus notifications. People can seem to be unmoved by evidence and are quick to throw out accusations of WP:PROFRINGE (see above) for dissent. It’s better off merged into NPOVN, imo. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ17:49, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SamuelRiv, when you looked down the page, did you get a sense for the proportion of topics that were:
Move the dispute to the noticeboard to be settled there (typical for, e.g., RSN),
Requests that page watchers go to the talk page (typical for most WikiProjects), or
Questions more in the "background information" range (typical for a village pump post)?
As far as I can tell looking now, none are about relocating or centralizing discussion, except the UAPDA thread is interesting where the editor challenged with WP:fringe goes themselves to FTN for advice on how to address it; a lot of the comments there seemed counterproductive until people finally got to the point (it had zero to do with any fringe policies from what I can tell). There are a couple that seemed to try to want to fork a discussion onto FTN, rather than redirect it.
It appears the majority of threats are requesting people comment on existing article discussions (in two cases, the condition of an entire article or AfD).
It sounds like it's working more like a WikiProject: a centralized page to seek help from people who are knowledgeable about the subject matter. That's not inherently bad; it's good for editors to bring their health-related article disputes to WT:MED and their stats/math questions to WT:MATH. I'm not sure that I'd recommend merging that to a more traditional noticeboard, though, as it's quite a different style of interaction. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like it's working more like a WikiProject
I am less convinced than they are that Wikipedia's handling of fringe topics is working appropriately. I see at least two issues:
1. On issues FTN (one could argue, the greater skeptic movement) doesn't see as its targets, it doesn't do anything, and as a result there's lots of articles on minor religious topics that have wild supernatural claims in them. For instance, see Oven of Akhnai, which repeats a story from the Talmud verbatim in Wikivoice that basically treats rabbis as wizards. Or the recently fixed poor state of Tukdam was also due to this.
2. On issues FTN (again, one could argue the greater skeptic movement) does see as its targets, it is extremely aggressive about maintaining a "skeptical" POV, often way past what the actual sources can support. The recent arguments over Tukdam are also a clear case of this, as an example of what happens when FTN suddenly discovers something it believes to be woo-y. My other example is EMDR, which claims a therapy that has been recommended by a huge list of WP:MEDORGsremains controversial within the psychological community per an article from 25 years ago and an article that specifically claims there is no controversy that it does work, because it's on the list of skeptic targets, because when it was initially formulated many psychologists were very skeptical of it to the point of calling it pseudoscience.
In a lot of ways FTN operates as Wikipedia's immune system, and in this capacity Wikipedia clearly has an autoimmune disorder. It doesn't react to most things it should, and when it does react it way overreacts. The mere fact that most of the things skeptics look out for are not present on Wikipedia is not by itself sufficient evidence that it's actually working as desired. Loki (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On issues FTN (again, one could argue the greater skeptic movement) does see as its targets, it is extremely aggressive about maintaining a "skeptical" POV, often way past what the actual sources can support
This is the biggest issue I can see. It feels like people view themselves as WP:SMEs in “fringe” when that’s not exactly a thing, and sometimes editors assume their own read on complex topics is arrived at from a place of perfect understanding. Panspermia (discussed above) is still the most galling example of this to me, where source after source after source after source was met with “nuh uh” and the way it’s set up on Wikipedia is still potentially actively misreading to readers.
It seems like there's been enough back-and-forth with a bit of analysis in there to boot. I plan to start an RfC in a few hours, maybe attract a wider community input, and just let's close out this discussion for the year or so. The questions I intend to put forward: Close (and move) FTN (to where is at discretion of regulars), and close (and move or downgrade) WP:Fringe (with suboptions by vote). Venue will be here for maximum participation and referral back to this thread, unless people think it is more appropriate instead to be at Wikipedia Talk:FRINGE. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I figure that community consensus is not necessary to decide, should FTN be closed, whether its function be placed into a wikiproject or merged into another noticeboard. I think such a thing can just be done. Although perhaps, to avoid having to do a separate straw poll (should closure be the result of the RfC), they'd want people to give their opinions in !votes here. (Maybe if FTN is decided to be closed but WP:Fringe remains, they'd want policies within WP:Fringe to get handled mostly at a NPOVN rather than at NORN, and that's worth saying, I dunno.) SamuelRiv (talk) 22:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think getting rid of WP:FRINGE would be a mistake, especially considering how much fringe stuff makes its way here. I do think FTN’s remit already falls under NPOVN, and given that there seems to be a sort of consensus on FTN to (sometimes) creatively interpret the policies of Wikipedia in a way that we really should be able to rely on each other as experienced editors to prevent. I’m happy enough to vote, though. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ23:06, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I think it's worth asking just because it's up here, and it closes it out. A RfC can ask two questions. I'll post it in a few minutes. SamuelRiv (talk) 23:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aside: @Warrenmck: please stop doing weird extra indentation to partially quote people. It's going to be an accessibilty problem for various users (they may be used to our talk pages formatted unhelpfully as description/association/definition lists, but your behavior is signaling to them that some unknown party has injected a comment before yours, between whoever you are replying to and you), and it's visually confusing for everyone else. No one – literally no one, ever – writes the way you want to on Wikipedia, so please just format your comments intelligibly like everyone else. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 14:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not my intent to cause accessibility issues, so I’ll stop, but I’ll die on the hill that indenting quotes generally improves legibility. :) Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ15:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the main topic here: After plowing through a lot of this, I find myself generally in agreement with those that do not find there to be a policy or practices issue at stake here. Religious believers pretty much always feel that any criticism, skepticism, fact-checking, or even basic neutrality with regard to their beliefs is an affront, a wrong, an evil, yet we have to do it anyway. Hand-waving with emotive references to reddit and atheism groups does not demonstrate any kind of actual bias problem on Wikipedia or any bad-acting by anyone in particular, and this is not the venue for that anyway. I see a lot of repetitive complaint and vague accusation or "the sky is falling" stuff from a particular party (who others indicate has been beating this drum for a long time across multiple venues), but there is no concrete problem to solve. Bon)scourage near the top of this over-long thread has it right: when claims from a religion obtrude into the real world ... then WP:FRINGE can certainly apply.
I spend a considerable amount of time in "religion" articles broadly speaking, from ancient mythology and folklore to modern Christian denominations and their organizational history, and there simply isn't a problem of WP leaping onto and bashing theological claims. However, there is a common problem of proselytizers of particular faiths, especially but not exclusively new relgious movements [note to Warrenmck: that phrase is not a proper name and does not take capitals as "New Religious Movements", and your use of that overcapitalization, like much of your general approach here, hints at promotionalism], making claims that amount to some element of their dogma being verifiable fact when it is not, or various purported miracles or powers being demonstrably true when they are not, or extremely dubious mytho-history found in scriptures being verifiable history when it is not, or a particular figure or group being the "one true [whatever]" when others in other denominations make competing claims, and so on. All of this sort of stuff is clearly subject to WP:FRINGE. The fact of whether or not a particular Christian denomination treats veneration of saints as idolatry or not and what arguments their "divines" have put forth pro or con such a viewpoint, is not a FRINGE matter, but simply a matter of reliable sourcing. What we don't have any kind of problem with is WP articles on religious matters being written something like "According to the Church of Utter Salvation, the one true path to enlightenment is through omphaloskepsis, but this idea is wrong because [whatever]." In NRM-related articles with too few watchlisters, we do often have a countervailing problem of cult leaders being claimed to have worked miracles, but this stuff does not last long in our content.
This thread has the same feel as all those perennial complaints along the lines "Wikipedia is doing it all wrong because it won't let me promote [insert outlandish viewpoint here]". The fact is that verifiable reality leans heavily in certain directions (e.g. against "climate change is a hoax", against racial supremacy of any sort, against claims of miracles ever being verifiable, etc.). Wikipedia is not doing it all wrong, and is not broken. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 15:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[note to Warrenmck: that phrase is not a proper name and does not take capitals as "New Religious Movements", and your use of that overcapitalization, like much of your general approach here, hints at promotionalism
Ah, yes, the old promontionalism of “arguing that we should keep in academic sources discrediting a religious belief”. Of course. How silly of me.
Seriously, it feels like half this entire discussion descended into some kind of wild strawmanning where I was arguing to keep WP:PROFRINGE content in instead of objecting to the removal of anti-fringe content. I’ve been accused of everything from being butthurt to summarily described as a WP:PROFRINGE religious believer objecting to the removal of fringe content when that’s clearly not what happened, and I’m very low on faith from a lot of these accusations that many people have actually taken time to read the core arguments and discussions. The status quo of the Tukdam article, which met the satisfaction of many editors I was butting heads with elsewhere, was written in large part by me, and if you look through the article’s history and when it was first brought up at FTN I was quick to remove in-universe language and call out a cited Buddhist magazine as a bad source there. Your accusations are uncalled for.
The fact that this game of telephone has transformed from me objecting to applying religious tests to credible academics publishing utterly mundane anti-fringe findings into me objecting to the removal of fringe content is exactly why I raised this topic here in the first place: an utter lack of ability to assume good faith (in the typical sense, not specific wikiparlance WP:AGF) and nuance around these topics.
My capitalization of NRM, which I typically do so that I can switch to using the initialism further down for people unfamiliar with the term, isn’t evidence of some kind of nefarious pro-fringe stance. If you want to accuse me of promotional/POV editing I suggest you bring receipts. A fundamental issue with how many on FTN engage with religious topics doesn’t mean I’m a bad actor here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ16:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SMcCandlish, can we talk about this a bit more? I'm seeing phrases like Religious believers pretty much always feel that any criticism...is an affront and when claims from a religion obtrude into the real world and thinking the first is an anti-religious stereotype and the second expresses an anti-religious sentiment.
To claim that "religious believers pretty much always" anything is a stereotype. 85% of the world subscribes to some sort of religion. If 85% of humans are "pretty much always" like that, then that's normal human behavior. I doubt that if you chatted up your religious neighbors, you'd find that they're "pretty much always" affronted by criticism. My Catholic neighbors have quite a lot of criticism about their church, and they don't seem the least bit offended if people disagree with their religion. OTOH I have seen a couple atheists who were terribly upset about people not sharing their views – but I've only seen this in university students, and I assume they grow out of it.
Who says that religion is forcing itself onto the real world? Religion is a human behavior. 85% of humans engage in this set of behaviors. Religion is part of the real world. Religion should not be treated as some sort of minority or deviant behavior, nor as something separate from the human world. Spirits/angels/ghosts/whatever are not part of the physical world, but religion seems to me to be a human institution. (Believers are cheerfully invited to disagree with me, in whatever ways happen to align with your own beliefs, or to add a caveat like "at least to a significant extent", but I will point out that a List of oldest continuously operated bureaucracies would include the Roman Catholic Church.)
So phrase it more senstively, but the central point remains sound. Our articles about, or intersecting with, religious subjects see continual attempts to promote religious dogmas and stories as established fact. The very nature of faith is to conflate undemonstrable "truths" derived from assertion and tradition with facts establishable with evidence, to promote the former over the latter, and to invert the burden of proof. Observing this set of problems and being critical with regard to it is not "anti-relgion", it's simply encyclopedist realism/practicality. What percentage of the world believes in a particular category of something isn't really pertinent. A much higher percentage than the religious faithful are those who believe in one urban legend or another (probably more like 99.9%), but this doesn't have any implications for how WP should approach writing about that category of subject. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 01:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's true. For example, Santa Claus intersects with religious subjects, and it isn't subject to continual attempts to promote religious dogmas and stories as established fact.
But I think we could write the same sentence about other subjects, e.g.:
Our articles about, or intersecting with, religiousright-wing political subjects see continual attempts to promote religiousright-wing political dogmas and stories as established fact. The very nature of faithright-wing politics is to conflate undemonstrable "truths" derived from assertion and tradition with facts establishable with evidence, to promote the former over the latter, and to invert the burden of proof.
Our articles about, or intersecting with, religiouscryptocurrency subjects see continual attempts to promote religiouscryptocurrency dogmas and stories as established fact. The very nature of faithfinancial bubbles is to conflate undemonstrable "truths" derived from assertion and tradition with facts establishable with evidence, to promote the former over the latter, and to invert the burden of proof.
Our articles about, or intersecting with, religiousgeopolitical subjects see continual attempts to promote religiousgeopolitical dogmas and stories as established fact. The very nature of faithgeopolitical disputes is to conflate undemonstrable "truths" derived from assertion and tradition with facts establishable with evidence, to promote the former over the latter, and to invert the burden of proof.
Our articles about, or intersecting with, religiousgender and sexuality subjects see continual attempts to promote religiousgender and sexuality dogmas and stories as established fact. The very nature of faithgender and sexuality viewpoints is to conflate undemonstrable "truths" derived from assertion and tradition with facts establishable with evidence, to promote the former over the latter, and to invert the burden of proof.
Taking these points in order: No one (least of all me) said that every fringe, religious, or related topic attracted pro-fringe PoV-pushing equally. Your Santa Claus bit is what's called reductio ad absurdum, admixed with some appeal to ridicule and straw man. Your point about right-wing politics is entirely correct, but has no implications for this discussion. A large segment of the far-right overlaps with a large segment of religious extremists, and a great deal of what the far-right promotes as "truth" is fringe nonsense. That doesn't somehow translate into a permissive attitude (actual or desirable) at WP toward far-right claims and publishers. If anything, we need an elevated level of alterness with regard to it. But it is largely also covered by WP:FRINGE and WP:FTN, as are religio-spiritual claims being advanced as if proven facts, and this is not "broken". Much of that also applies to cryptocurrency, and outlandish claims in that area are aready addressed by FRINGE/FTN. I don't know what you mean in this context by "geopolitical" (a vague term), and it seems to fail as an analogy; there don't appear to be any such things as "geopolitical dogmas". G/S: those areas are very, very well-studied so it also analogically fails. The assertion-and-tradition and burden-inversion involved appear to come from – surprise! – far-right religious quarters; claims from the opposite side usually have a stockpile of reliable research sources behind them, so this is again another area where FRINGE/FTN is doing its job. Really, you're kind of making my point for me: when religion/spirituality veer into making claims that purport to be factual but are not verifiable, then it is in FRINGE/FTN's scope, and is not distinct from any other topic in that regard. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 17:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About this discussion
Until a few minutes ago, this page was above 600K in size, which is about three or four times the maximum size that seems to work for people on mobile devices. I split off an RFC a few minutes ago, which shrank the page by a third, but this discussion is almost as big. There also seem to only be a few of us still active in it. I'd like to suggest either:
just stopping and letting this discussion be archived, in which case you're all welcome to leave a note about any last thoughts on my User_talk: page.
If you want the first, then please say so. If you want the second, then no response is necessary (actually, no response would be critically important). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to have run its course, but considering how weirdly comfortable people have been in accusing me of being a POV fringe-pushing religious editor I would like to note, in bold, for anyone referencing this thread in the future that much of the meat of this thread was me disagreeing with the removal of an anti-fringe source on the grounds of religious tests for the author despite their being academics at a secular institution and finding utterly unremarkable, anti-fringe results. A few editors (most recently @SMcCandlish, directly above) definitely owe striking some of their comments which contain some pretty baseless accusations, and the voting thread was a mess of people misrepresenting the entire discussion as somehow raised by a religious POV pusher for, again, adding anti-fringe material back into an article. People are of course free to feel however they like about the issue at hand, but people aren’t entitled to construct narratives about other editors and abandon civility in their quest to hunt the perfect strawman.
The aspersions cast here feel pretty significant and I don’t want to be batting off a reputation as a pro-fringe editor for anti-fringe edits. How I (and to a lesser extent @Hydrangeans and @SamuelRiv [seriously, a WP:NOTHERE accusation for a well known and established editor?]) were treated here for dissent feels like a black mark on Wikipedia’s handling of contentious topics with civility.
In the WP:SNOW-opposed RfC growing out of this trainwreck, Warrenmck also urged disbanding WP:FTN. One does not get to (in this thread) support actions that would release a flood of fringe nonsense on WP by demonizing fringe-watching editors as a pack of bigots and undercutting the guidelines and processes they rely on, and (in the RfC thread) try to nuke the venue by which the community handles this, yet then claim that one is really an anti-fringe editor simply because there's a diff somewhere of one supporting removal of a fringe thing. Not all fringe material is created equal, and it's common to scoff at various fringe things while believing or being undecided about others. E.g., I can't count the number of people I know who think anti-vaxxers are nuts but who also believe in astrology, or who think that the idea of space aliens abducting people is nonsense but who believe climate-change is fake and that the 2020 US election was stolen. If one is taking a position that would harm our ability to police the encyclopedia for fringe claims, then one is, as a practical matter, a pro-fringe editor whether or not one is engaging in self-denial about it. It doesn't matter in the least whether one disbelieves in a particular bit of fringe material under discussion in a particular thread, or pays lipservice to WP not promoting fringe material. Actions matter more than words. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 16:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've also been treated poorly at times by a small minority of the regulars at FTN... But jumping from there to throwing the baby out with the bathwater is another thing (I also doubt that simply changing the venue the discussions take place in will decrease the historical conflict between the small s skeptics and the large s Skeptics who frequent it, they're/we're at almost all at the alternative venues as well) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:56, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
Is there consensus to have administrator recall based on the consensus reached during Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review? 03:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
The consensus reached there established recall with the following process:
Petition
Cannot be launched until 12 months have passed since the user has successfully requested adminship or bureaucratship, re-requested adminship, or become an arbitrator.
25 editors must support the petition to trigger the re-request for adminship process.
The format allows for discussion and reasoning to be explained.
To support a petition, you must meet the criteria to participate in a request for adminship. You must not support more than 5 open petitions. There is no limitation on how often someone can initiate a petition.
If a petition for a given admin fails to gain the required support, another petition for that admin cannot be launched for six months.
Support statements can be stricken based on the same criteria as for requests for adminship.
Re-request process
A bureaucrat will start a re-request for adminship by default. The admin can request a delay of up to 30 days. If the re-request does not start by then, the admin can have their privileges removed at the discretion of the bureaucrats.
The re-request can also take the form of participating in an admin election. (Not clear what the consensus is regarding the need for the election to fall within the 30-day window).
For either a re-request or an election, the following thresholds apply:
below 50%: fail
50–60%: Bureaucrats evaluate consensus
60% and above: pass
Background
During phase 1 of WP:RFA2024Joe Roe closed two proposals for recall with the following close (in part with emphasis in the original):
Considering § Proposal 16: Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs, § Proposal 16c: Community recall process based on dewiki, § Proposal 16d: Community recall process initiated by consensus (withdrawn), in parallel, there is a rough consensus that the community should be able to compel an administrator to make a re-request for adminship (RRFA) in order to retain their administrator rights. However, there is also a consensus that the process(es) for initiating an RRFA needs to be worked out in more detail before this is implemented. Phase II of this review should therefore consider specific proposals for RRFA initiation procedures and further consensus should be sought on which, if any, is to be adopted. The dewiki-inspired process suggested in Proposal 16c was well-supported and should be a starting point for these discussions.
When the second phase began the process was, after 3 days, structured in a way that took Proposal 16c and offered alternative options for certain criteria. This was done in good faith by Soni who had originally proposed 16c. Some editors objected to this structuring at the time and/or suggested that a 3rd RfC would be needed to confirm consensus; Joe Roe would later clarify well after the process was underway that the Phase 2 structure did not, in his opinion as closer, reflect the consensus of Phase 1. Others, including Voorts who closed most of Admin recall phase 2, suggest that there was adequate consensus to implement the process described above. Post-close discussion among editors has failed to achieve any kind of consensus (including whether there needs to be an RfC like this). As an editor uninvolved in the current discussions about Admin recall until now, it seemed to me that the clearest way to figure out if this recall process has consensus or not is to ask the community here rather than have this discussion in parallel with an attempt to recall someone. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Survey (administrator recall)
(involved) The question here is simple: did a two-phase discussion that reached consensus in both phases also achieve an overall consensus to implement? The answer is equally simple: yes, it did. The current strongest argument against this idea seems to be that Phase II's formatting didn't give enough leeway for someone to propose a recall system distinct from the dewiki process (while still using that as a starting point). But there was an open discussion, and I don't recall seeing a different idea gain any significant amount of traction. If we really need to go through an entirely new RfC to double-confirm a proposal we've already accepted in principle and fine-tuned, fine, let's do it, but it seems like a waste of community time to me. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 11:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Despite this, people added additional proposals, and additional options to existing proposals, and nobody complained about the open discussion section being closed, for months thereafter. Levivich (talk) 18:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(uninvolved) Yes consensus was reached. Naturally new tweaks/discussions will come along. Let's have specific RfCs on those. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:38, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there is a consensus (uninvolved). A legitimate objection is that the process of managing the second RfC may have stymied other possible outcomes beyond a de wiki style process, and this may have been the case. However, RfCs with perceived flaws tend to generate lots of comments pointing this out (as we can already see below) and I'm just not seeing that that in the 2nd phase RfC. The 1st phase confirmed that the community wanted a recall process, the 2nd phase asked for proposals to be developed for implementation and there was a consensus found within that discussion for a specific variant. In the interest of not letting the perfect being the enemy of the good, I believe there is sufficient support for the admin policy to be updated based in this outcome, with further adjustments being made as required (or indeed removing it entirely should a subsequent consensus determine that it should). Scribolt (talk) 15:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strangely-worded question. No, there isn't currently a consensus for this proposal; but yes, I think we should reach consensus for it at this RfC.—S MarshallT/C16:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A key challenge in trying to reach agreement by consensus is that interest tends to wane as discussion moves from higher-level concepts to more fine details. One way to address this is to get consensus for a general initiative, obtain consensus for key aspects to incorporate, then work on implementation details. For this specific situation, I think the phase 2 discussion did a sufficient job at taking the support shown during phase 1 and working out agreement on the broad-stroke steps for a recall process. As always, because it's hard to get people to pay enough attention to reconcile specific wording, part of working out the implementation means finding a working procedure that is the central object illuminated from different directions by people's statements. I feel the phase 2 results reveals enough scaffolding to proceed with implementation. isaacl (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(involved) Yes. There is consensus per my comments in the post-close discussion, as well as per leeky and Scribolt above. Those editors raising objections to the idea of admin recall or the proposals that gained consensus, but who did not participate in the earlier RfCs, should have participated; phases I and II were both widely advertised (I remember them being posted at T:CENT, VPP, AN, AN/I, etc.). I worry that a third RfC will fatigue the community and disproportionately draw the most vocal opponents to the process, resulting in a small group of people overriding a consensus already twice-determined by the community. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I participated in both Phase I and Phase II. I believe the results of Phase II achieved consensus and should be implemented. I do not see how this contradicts the results of Phase I. As others have pointed out, an actual policy page is still being drafted and might have to go through yet another RfC. Having an RfC on the validity of each step seems like a waste of time. Toadspike[Talk]07:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think your question answers itself. "Was there consensus for the consensus"? The answer is obviously yes. Now, if you want to ask a different question, open a different RFC. --130.111.220.19 (talk) 18:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, there isn't consensus for the recall process proposed at Wikipedia:Administrator recall. I'll reiterate a comment I made on the Phase II talk page: taking the mini-consensuses from that phase, then using them to cobble together a process, doesn't translate into a solid policy with broad community consensus. The fact that various aspects of the proposal, even now, are up in the air disproves the notion that "the consensus already exists". Those who are advocating for Wikipedia:Administrator recall need to finalise that page, then present it for a simple yes/no RfC, so that the consensus (or lack thereof) on the policy as a whole is beyond question. SuperMarioMan (Talk) 20:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, there is no consensus for this, and I've explained why on the pages where the proposal is being developed. But I think it's unfair to ask this question now, because the editors who support the proposal are still working on it. I therefore think this RfC should be closed as premature. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had hoped that this RfC would be withdrawn, but it appears that it won't, so I feel the need to say why this RfC cannot establish consensus for the policy change.
First, Barkeep49 gets the facts wrong in the statement of this RfC. He says: Joe Roe would later clarify well after the process was underway that the Phase 2 structure did not, in his opinion as closer, reflect the consensus of Phase 1. In fact, he said more than that: I'm really sorry to say this, but reading it all through now, I think Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall has trainwrecked... I just cannot see how a genuine consensus can be said to come from a process like this... The only way I can see of salvaging this is to take whatever precise version of 16C got the most support and present it as a straight support/oppose RfC.[23]. Barkeep49 goes on to quote Voorts as having determined that phase 2 established consensus: Others, including Voorts who closed most of Admin recall phase 2, suggest that there was adequate consensus to implement the process described above. But in fact, Voorts drew a clear distinction between his close of individual sections, as an uninvolved closer, and his personal opinions about overall consensus, which were separate from the close: [24], [25].
And the bullet-list summary differs in some substantive ways from what appears to be the proposed policy. 25 editors must support the petition. Isn't it 25 extended confirmed editors? Who closes the petition? In fact, this is still being discussed: [26].
Since when are policy pages simply a bullet-list? Are we being asked to establish the bullet-list as a policy page, or are we being asked about Wikipedia:Administrator recall? The latter is beyond any question a work-in-progress. So if it needs to be changed as the editing process there continues, are we establishing consensus for the current version, or for some indeterminate version that will emerge in the future? And if the real purpose of this RfC is to establish consensus against, is that a fair process?
Phase 1 established consensus for some form of process. Phase 2 established consensus for some particular forms of the process, but did not establish whether those forms are actually to be implemented as policy, or whether those forms are the best version to be submitted as a policy proposal. This RfC muddles two different questions: whether the process so far has already established consensus, or whether the proposal summarized in bullet points should now be adopted as policy. And some editors here have been answering the first question, whereas others have been answering the second.
No one has answered the question of what is inadequate with the status quo, with ArbCom handling desysop requests.
The bullet-list proposal would be a disaster for Wikipedia if enacted here. It can't even be launched within the first year after the successful RfA? What happens if an admin does objectional things before then? More importantly, we are in a time when many members of the community are deeply concerned that we do not have enough new admins emerging from RfA, and that we are starting to see backlogs. Many members of the community regard RfA as being unattractive to well-qualified candidates, too stressful, not worth the aggravation. So if any random group of 25 users can force a recall, and just a few can start the petition process, how will that affect administrator morale? Will even more qualified RfA candidates decide against applying? Will current admins become too fearful of angering 25 disruptive editors, and hold back from dealing with contentious tasks, such as AE?
At least we should have a fully-developed proposal for the community to evaluate. Given that there are editors who are working on just that, it seems foolish to demand an up-or-down RfC now, before they have finished, on the theory that this would save them the trouble of working on something that will fail. Plenty of editors want the proposal to succeed, so they are not being imposed upon by giving them the time to finish. And the proposal here isn't ready for prime time. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes (uninvolved) - There is a super clear consensus to have an administrator recall. Still work to be done om the actual policy page. But to the question of this RFC, Is there consensus to have administrator recall based on the consensus reached during the last review? Yes clearly, otherwise the right next step would be to challenge that close. This is not the place to relitigate the RFC or how the policy page is being created. PackMecEng (talk) 13:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No IMO the question is unclear but I think interpreted as "was it decided that the deWiki version be adopted?". In shorthand, the main close was a general consensus that there should be a recall process, with the related verbiage in essence implicitly saying that it needed to be developed and then approved. The close on adopting the deWiki version was that there was insufficient participation (in this context) to consider it to be a decision either way. So the next step is to develop a proposal that can get wide support and get it approved. While keeping in mind that the first close says that it's already decided that "we want something like this" and so that question should not be revisited, and "There should not be any such recall process" is not a valid argument at this point. North8000 (talk) 13:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. If this discussion is "Should Wikipedia:Administrator recall be implemented?", my answer is yes. That is effectively what the list of points above effectively are. If this question is "Is there consensus already to implement Wikipedia:Administrator recall?" then my answer is also Yes. I think there was consensus via Phase II to do this. If people believe there isn't, then I strongly prefer resolving the first question right now instead of bunting this entire thing to a second RFC further down the line. I also personally would have preferred a week while editors already discussing the matter at Wikipedia talk:Administrator recall could resolve this. But the cat's out of the bag, and nobody seems to actually close this as premature. So I would prefer going through with this RFC instead of alternatives that draw this out for everyone. Soni (talk) 05:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Soni's first question, my answer is unreservedly Yes. Regarding Soni's second question, my answer is a Very Weak Yes. Also, this RfC is a premature mess. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. We do not need an RfC to answer the question "Did the previous discussion, with a consensus close, actually close with a consensus?" Just get it done. Details will, as usual, be refined as we go along. If the entire thing turns out, after post-implementation experience, to be a bad idea, then it can be undone later. PS: If there is doubt whether a close of an RfC or other discussion actually reached the consensus claimed by the closer, the place to hash that out is WP:AN (unless it's subject to a more specific review process like WP:MRV for move disputes, and WP:DRV for deletion ones). — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 13:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. The partial trainwreck of the discussion that happened at the Phase II RfC meant that consensus for several critical aspects of the recall proposal did not gain sufficient consensus to enact such a significant change to a core policy (WP:ADMIN). And for my own part I failed to see a consensus on some matters at all, though I suppose reasonable minds can disagree on the matter. JavaHurricane10:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the question here is whether there is consensus for some future version, in which the details will have been finalized. It's whether there is consensus for what it says at the top of this RfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right. And my position is that there is (or at least it should be established here) consensus for the form of recall described in the 14 bullet points listed above. Some people in this discussion have queried the precise interpretation of some of the points, so another round of workshopping precise language would not be amiss, but the proposal should continue to move forward on this basis without "going back to the drawing board" because of concerns about a previous RFC. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is consensus to adopt an administrator recall process that includes the characteristics that achieved consensus in RFA2024 Phase II. To my eye, the proposal here successfully reflects that consensus. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"25 editors" is much too vague. Could be 25 IPs? Only logged in editors with some experience should be allowed, and the simplest way is to require EC. Zerotalk02:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Already done. The suffrage requirements for recall petitions are "same as RFA". That was one of the Phase 2 consensuses (consensi?). Phase 1 consensus set RFA suffrage to EC. Levivich (talk) 03:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, confirm consensus. The weight of community involvement and the clear consensus close are sufficient to grant this process the effect of policy immediately. I will say this: I am absolutely shocked that the second phase of the discussion was not better advertised; given the long-anticipated nature of this process and the importance to community functions moving forward, it should have been better attended. And yet, the dozens of editors that did participate came to reasonable and clear consensus conclusions on various facets of the process. Beyond that, we are years deep into repeated derailing of the creation of this function, despite clear community support for some sort of process. There is absolutely no reason why further discussion to clarify, alter, or amend any provision of the process cannot take place after the process is codified in its namespace. But the time has come for the process to exist, and there is nothing egregiously problematic in what was decided upon in the foregoing discussion. With the caveat that, no matter what the community decided upon for the initial procedure, there are bound to be things we can only think to address and adjust after the first community RRfA discussions take place. SnowRise let's rap10:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, fair enough, if it was posted on CD, which is arguably the single best thing you can do to promote an issue. But I do think spaces like VP are a vastly more reasonable place for posting a notice intended to draw in general community input about the recall of admins, compared to AN, with it's limited traffic mostly constrained to admin activity (or at least as much constrained as any open space on the project). In fact, some may argue (though I'm certain it was lack of forethought rather than intent) that the only noticeboard to receive a notice of the discussion being the one noticeboard with the highest admin-to-non-admin activity ratio is maybe the least optimal way to advertise a discussion that would seek to create the community's first direct means for recalling admins. The CD link seems to have been the only notice well-calculated to reach an average community member: the mass mailer, the discussion link in the closure of phase I, and the watchlist notice, all of those were only ever going to reach those who participated in Phase I. Which is good, but again, probably a lot less than this discussion warranted. SnowRise let's rap17:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there appears to be community consensus to implement an Administrator Recall process as described. I think some of the concerns raised are genuine, especially the potential for abuse... But I doubt the community would look kindly on editors who chose to WP:GAME this new system. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes (involved). The existence of the pre-voting "open discussion" section, as well as the widespread "find a consensus" sentiment was enough for the consensus found to be valid. Mach6114:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes (involved). From the get-go, the purpose of WP:RFA2024 was to reach consensus -- not to workshop a proposal for later ratification, but to workshop proposals and approve/deny them in the same RFA2024 process. In Phase I, Proposals 16 and 16c, the overall proposal for a community-based recall system (#16) reached consensus. On the numbers, 65 editors voted, and it was 43-22. On the proposal for a specific dewiki-like system (#16c), 34 editors voted, it was a 25-9 majority, but this was determined to not be consensus because of the (relatively) lower participation.
We went on to Phase II, where specific proposals for details of the recall system were made. The purpose of Phase II was, clearly, to iron the details from Phase I #16c, not to draft a proposal for submission to the community, but to decide the details, in Phase II. This is evidenced by the many "find a consensus" votes in Phase II (the phrase appears 27 times on the page, in addition to which there are various variations on the theme), which were editors expressly saying they'd rather have a recall system in place with any of the proposed details, than have the proposal for recall fail due to disagreement about some of its details. It was clear that the participants wanted Phase II to end with a consensus for an actual system, not a proposal for a third round of RFC. 93 editors participated in Phase II [27], which is even more than in Phase I.
Both Phase I and II were widely advertised, tagged with the RFC template, advertised on watchlists, and posted on WP:CENT -- they more than complied with WP:PGCHANGE. They had broad participation, and the fact that Phase II ended with a system very similar to dewiki only confirms the budding consensus from Phase I. The fact that the "open discussion" section of Phase II was closed after a few days does not undermine the consensus-forming process in my view; discussion continued, new proposals continued to be made, and some voted against the entire idea of recall. Nevertheless, consensus was formed on various proposals, leading to the system that is now well-documented at WP:RECALL.
So, yes, this months-long process confirmed what we all already knew was global consensus (to have a community-decided involuntary recall system, and to have it be modeled on dewiki's successful system); this RFC will be the third time in a single year that this global consensus will be confirmed. When this RFC is closed as "yes," as I believe it will be, we should put the policy template on WP:RECALL and that should dispel any and all doubts as to whether WP:RECALL has consensus. 100+ editors in 3 rounds of voting is more than enough to establish global consensus. Levivich (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and No. It appears that Wikipedia:Administrator recall is still being developed and that these dot points are the basis for that development. There is a consensus for a recall policy according to these dot points but as has been pointed out above these dot points are not a policy in and of themselves so cannot be adopted immediately. When there is consensus for a barebones policy (the dot points) it is then developed into an actual policy page before a final RfC to adopt it. That's the normal process and should be followed here. So, yes there is a consensus to have a recall process along the lines of the dot points and that is correctly being developed into a policy before final adoption so, no, there is not yet a consensus to turn the wordy version at Wikipedia:Administrator recall into policy. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like it's ready for an RfC for formal adoption as a policy then? I don't think it's appropriate to merge this RfC into that given that the proposal here is a series of dot points that is different to what's at Wikipedia:Administrator recall. For example, I wouldn't support 25 editors as listed in this proposal but would support 25 extended confirmed editors. Other questions have been raised above (for example what if there's a concurrent ArbCom case) and I would encourage editors who have raised those concerns here to take them to Wikipedia talk:Administrator recall for a further discussion and whether or not they should be incorporated into that proposal before it is put forward for adoption. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I have expressed agreement with this sentiment before, I am also a firm believer of not putting everyone through additional WP:BURO after this. So I'd rather User: Barkeep49 or someone else add a link to WP:Administrator recall to the topic above instead of trying to wrangle a 4th RFC. I'd phrased my !vote above to answer the question I think we should be asking anyway. Soni (talk) 06:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed: Callanecc and Dilettante's points are accurate and well taken, but this really does come down to a more direct call on community will and BURO. I think the obvious emerging consensus here is that if a version of the policy language has already been rendered which includes all of the consensus elements agreed to for the process, without any glaring contraventions or other issues, then as soon as this discussion closes with a consensus in the affirmative, that version of the guideline becomes policy immediately. Repeating the process yet again for purely pro forma reasons is not necessary, appropriate, or a reasonable use of community time. Let's remember that any version validated can thereafter be reasonably expected to be subject to discussion and further tweaking, particularly in its first months. EDIT: Though I do think one reasonable thing that could be done thereafter would be to advertise every major disputed discussion on the guideline talk page at VPP for the next six months (and having a tendency to do so thereafter, really). It is, after all, a new process that has non-trivial consequence to our administrative operations, so continuing to have heavy community input in its initial evolution here can only be regarded as a good thing. SnowRise let's rap03:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding on to the pile that says that we've already gone through so much bureaucracy at this point that any more after this would be really out of the norm. If there's consensus here, mark it as policy and work out fine details as they are brought up. If there's not consensus, let's find out right now, and not after more formal RFC cycles. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes on principle, but some points still need to be workshopped. How does 50–60%: Bureaucrats evaluate consensus work for an election? Is it split in the middle? This kind of details should've been made clear before putting the proposal up to a vote. (Edit: looking at the comments below, this appears to have already been discussed) Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 06:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Close as the proposal is still being developed. A draft of a full proposal is being discussed at WP:Administrator recall that refines and adds clarification to the closes at WP:RFA2024. All editors are welcome to participate in the discussion. I do anticipate that this proposal will come back for community discussion. --Enos733 (talk) 03:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As noted when this was raised on my talk page, the work there appears procedural. There is no agreement even there about whether or not this is already policy or not. Having editors spend time developing something in detail when the core policy doesn't have consensus is a poor use of time in my opinion. If it does have consensus the details can be worked out and will be made to happen. We have seen that happen with Admin elections coming out of the RFA2024 process. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand where you are coming from, but the detailed efforts identified a couple challenges with how to implement the close, and I wouldn't suggest that the policy described above is the exact proposal coming from those efforts (although it is in harmony with the closes in WP:RFA2024). While every policy could be further refined, I am of the belief that our community is best served by bringing forward a more complete proposal for community discussion. - Enos733 (talk) 04:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This should be closed. For most people, whether they support admin recall depends very much on the details of the proposed mechanism. For a sensible RfC, the mechanism has to be spelled out (as above) but must not change for 30 days. That does not match reality at the moment. Johnuniq (talk) 04:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49, I oppose the proposal, but I think you should withdraw this RfC for now. What people still need (or at least should be entitled to) is to see a full proposal, a proposed policy page, not the bullet list summary you posted here, and to see a rationale for adopting the proposal, prepared by its supporters. And editors are working on those things now. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I long ago tuned this out as a TL;DR waste of my time. But curious, is there a consensus that the current Arbitration Committee-led "recall procedure" is not up to the task, and should be discontinued? Or, rather, is there a consensus that both procedures may be used. Can an admin be subject to both an Arbcom case *and* a "community recall procedure" at the same time? Is there a consensus for that? To be clear, I oppose the possibility of simultaneous, competing recall procedures. wbm1058 (talk) 09:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wbm1058 Nothing in this above would prevent someone from becoming a party to an arbcom case, or from arbcom issuing any remedy. How would you like a blocking condition to work? Perhaps a prohibition on community recall rrfa launching while the admin is a party to an arbcom case? — xaosfluxTalk10:42, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If stripping the Arbitration Committee of the power to desysop isn't part of the package, this whole "recall procedure" strikes me as highly problematic. Imagine an Admin suffering through a month-long Arbitration Commmittee proceeding, ending with an "admonishment" to the administrator, followed hours later by the opening of a "community recall procedure". – wbm1058 (talk) 10:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should be consensus for 55%. Option C stated the midpoint of whatever passed in the other discussion. Option C won there, which was 50-60%, so the midpoint is 55% which is explicitly called out in the first discussion. Pinging @Voorts: in case I'm completely misreading something here. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving aside everything else, this part is confusing: A bureaucrat will start a re-request for adminship by default. The admin can request a delay of up to 30 days. If the re-request does not start by then, the admin can have their privileges removed at the discretion of the bureaucrats. Is this implying that if the admin requests a delay then the admin is responsible for creating it? Why not have the 'crat create it after the delay, same as they would for no-delay? Anomie⚔14:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like that part at all. I'd rather see the admin start their own RRFA within some short deadline (7 days - with possibly the option for asking for the 30 day extension) -- and if they don't start it anyone can ask at BN to process the desysop. Crats never have to edit, so requiring the crats to create a pageto move the process forward gives them a pocket veto. — xaosfluxTalk14:46, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with this RFC's summary of that part of the proposal. As I read it, an admin chooses whether to start an RFA (or stand for election), which must be done within 30 days, and if it's not done within 30 days, crats desysop with discretion ("discretion" such as taking into account whether the petition was entirely signed by obvious sock puppets or had the requisite number of qualified signatories, or to extend the period to 32 or 33 days instead of 30 due to the admin's RL schedule, things of that nature). Levivich (talk) 15:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option E there is where it says the 'crat should open create the discussion. The other options had the admin being required to say "come attack me" within a certain period of time. The combination of E+A is where we got the confusion here, since E didn't explicitly say what should happen if a delay is requested. Anomie⚔15:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OTOH, looks like only 9 of those 30+ voted after E was added. That part, at least, seems like it could use further discussion by people who care. Anomie⚔15:23, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it would ever happen, but in theory the crats could just wait 30 days and then decide to revoke privileges without any community input, which seems like a flaw, that part should be reworded to clarify who is responsible for starting the process in each situation. ASUKITE17:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Close as premature. The page is a mess right now, as several people have posted above. It isn't anywhere near finalized so of course there will be holes and parts where it doesn't judge consensus. When I said "What we need is an RFC to decide whether or not we need another RFC", I didn't expect anyone to actually do it.Sincerely, Dilettante15:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little confused as to what is being asked here: is this a request for approval of a process? Or are we judging whether consensus was previously formed for it? The latter does not seem to me a good question to ask, as it is sending us further into the weeds of a proposal that has already gotten out of hand with respect to creation and approval procedure. But that's how I read my colleagues' !votes above. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do we really need another bureaucratic mess that is another RfC? I think the last one had enough consensus. Ping me if there's anything in particular we're trying to work out and I'm not getting the point of this. I'm trying to take a step back from the more complicated aspects of the project right now but this is important. Clovermoss🍀(talk)16:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Close as a confusing, duplicative mess. The specific question in this RFC, as far as I can make out, is asking whether the previous discussion had consensus to implement something following discussion, or whether the outcome of that further discussion needs to be subject to an RFC. I don't think it's sensible to even ask that until that further discussion is complete and we can see the differences between it and the consensus outcome. However, above there appears to be discussion of things other than that question, and no clear agreement about what the consensus of the last RFC was (with the consensus as determined by the closer having changed at least once since the initial close) - other than more discussion of the details was needed (which seems to be happening in two places). I don't think it's possible for this discussion to be useful in any way so it should be closed before it creates even more confusion. Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: I think there might be some confusion about what this discussion is for – it would definitely be silly if it was trying to ask people to assess the consensus of the post-close discussion on talk. This RfC asks the same question the post-close discussion has been focused on: did the Phase I and Phase II RfCs result in a consensus to implement? That, I think, is worth discussing. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:23, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "25 editors" figure in the initial proposal was qualified as being extended confirmed. Definitely not supporting a process whereby any 25 editors, over the course of a full month, can start this process. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 13:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there's a consensus ... but whether there is or isn't, "There is no limitation on how often someone can initiate a petition." needs to be clarified. You can't support more than five open petitions, but then the next sentence says you can initiate a petition without limit. Those two statements need to be harmonized. --B (talk) 13:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think "There is no limitation on how often someone can initiate a petition" is entirely accurate. There are limitations on how often someone can initiate a petition (there are cooling off periods, plus the 5-petitions-at-once limit), limitations that were decided in Phase II and are specified at WP:Administrator recall § Petition. Levivich (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re:Close as premature comments, I said my piece above and on my talk page about why I thought (and think) it appropriate. I also don't think I hold any particular status other than being UNINVOLVED in this process. So if some other UNINVOLVED editor wants to close this as premature, I'm certainly not going to push back. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For further background, see wp:Administrators_open_to_recall and the associated categories and pages. (including pages related to some actual recalls) When we came up with this back in the Jurassic Era, we intended it to be voluntary. It's interesting to see that there appears to be consensus that some kind of mandatory process be implemented. ++Lar: t/c15:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is a revert?
There is a long-simmering issue when dealing with 1RR, namely there is no policy that covers what a revert is. WP:REVERT which defines a revert as reversing a prior edit or undoing the effects of one or more edits, which typically results in the article being restored to a version that existed sometime previously. is an essay, and Help:Revert, which is an information page, uses undoing or otherwise negating the effects of one or more edits, which results in the page (or a part of it) being restored to a previous version.
First issue is that these two definitions contradict each other. ...typically results in the article being restored to a version that existed sometime previously and ...which results in the page (or a part of it) being restored to a previous version are mutually exclusive. Something can typically result or result, and there is a large space between them. Secondly, undoing the effects of one or more edits and otherwise negating the effects is a hole wide enough to drive an article about an 80s cartoon character through.
Normally, this type of ambiguity is par for the course, but we have multiple policies, bright-line rules, and arbitration sanctionsWP:3RR, WP:1RR, WP:CTOP#Standard_set that call out reverts, and can be grounds for immediate blocking and sanctioning.
So I ask, what is a revert? When does something become the WP:STATUSQUO so that changing or removing it is BOLD and not a revert? Where is the line on undoing the effects or negating the effects? If someone adds bananas are good to an article and someone changes that to bananas are not good has the previous edit been reverted, as the effect was negated, or should the banana-hater have the first mover advantage? Should we have an actual policy defining a revert if we're going to have arbitration sanctions and bright-line blocked if you break 'em rules about reverting? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A revert is changing anything I don't want changed. Seriously tho, since changing anything is technically a revert, one is forced into examining the exact circumstances, how long since content was added, intent, etc. Selfstudier (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think rules should be interpretted according to their purpose, which isn't always clear from their literal wording. The purpose of classifying edits as reverts is to identify edit-warring in a semi-rigorous way. It isn't to catch editors out for cooperative editing. If Selfstudier writes "The population of XYZ is 10,000", and I remove it with the comment "I don't like that source", then that's a revert. However, if I remove it with the comment "That's a different place called XYZ, see page 23 for our XYZ", that's cooperative editing. The difference is that in the first instance I was opposing Selfstudier's intention, and in the second case I was assisting with it. Something likely to please the editor whose edit is being changed shouldn't be called edit-warring, ergo not a revert. Encoding this principle in a way that everyone can understand might be tall order, and in my current covid-ridden-and-sleep-deprived state I won't try. Zerotalk15:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SFR is correct to highlight the "restored to a previous version" aspect, which was always broken. Consider add A, add B, delete A, add C, delete B. Possibly two reverts in there but no two versions of the page are the same. Zerotalk15:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should be able to point to an edit that was reversed. Removal is basically always a revert, restoring what was removed is almost always a revert, rewording? Depends, but in the case of "A is true" edited to "A is not true", one of those editors is doing something more important than reverting anyway. nableezy - 15:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there can be a hard rule on when edit B negates the effects of edit A, because there are lots of ways to reword edits, all functionally equivalent to a revert. Unfortunately for the enforcement of the one-revert rule, I think it's also difficult to have blanket rules on when some content has achieved default consensus agreement status, as it's highly dependent on factors such as how many editors regularly review changes to an article. As per English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions, the way forward is to have a discussion about what is the current consensus, halting any changes on the contested content in the meantime. I appreciate, though, that has high overhead. The community has been unable to agree upon less costly ways to resolve disagreements. isaacl (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a constructive and reasonable clarification. I would say that if you can no longer see the edit you're supposedly reverting in the first 50 or 100 page revisions, and there's good faith reason to believe that the editor was no longer aware that they were reverting, it's no longer a revert. Wikipedia:Reverting: Any edit to existing text could be said to reverse some of a previous edit. However, this is not the way the community defines reversion, because it is not consistent with either the principle of collaborative editing or with the editing policy. Wholesale reversions (complete reversal of one or more previous edits) are singled out for special treatment because a reversion cannot help an article converge on a consensus version.Andre🚐22:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like some essays on this might be a good idea (then we can figure out which one is most accurate, refine it over time, and gradually push it towards policy, or at least towards being a highly-respected essay with nearly the weight of policy.) Having hard-and-fast rules risks people gaming them, and I'm not sure it's possible, but there's some definite guidelines that could be helpful. I threw together a quick-and-dirty User:Aquillion/What_is_a_revert with my thoughts - note the two questions at the end, which are the points I'm uncertain about (I definitely saw a dispute recently about the "removal -> restore -> add text downplaying the disputed material" sequence somewhere recently, so it ought to be nailed down.) My opinion is that it isn't a revert - this interprets negating the effects too broadly. As the second example on my essay shows, that logic could be used to argue that once I've made an edit to an article, almost any edit made by anyone in a dispute with me anywhere in the article at all is now a revert, because any addition of other information that potentially contradicts or even just waters down the WP:WEIGHT of my addition could reasonably be framed as undoing the intent of my edit. I add something saying "X is true"; someone in a dispute with me then makes a large addition to the article, of stuff that was never there before but which represents a position that broadly diverges from what I added. I accuse them of trying to water down my statement that "X is true" by making it less of the article by percentage and otherwise shifting the balance I established, effectively reverting me. This may even actually be their intent! It's a common situation! But it's not, I think, an actual revert. --Aquillion (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that your discussion of how things become a lot less clear with 1RR vs 3RR is worth noting. A lot of things become more clear with the repetition, but it's pretty blurry with 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, an observation: the community has imposed a 0RR sanction before, which is not intended to be a complete ban on editing. Nearly every edit involves undoing or otherwise negating the effects of one or more edits. Therefore, a revert is not simply undoing or otherwise negating the effects of one or more edits and so either that definition is wrong or the qualifier which results in the page (or a part of it) being restored to a previous version is important.
My general inclination, separate from that observation, is to construe "revert" narrowly. An edit is a revert if it returns the page to a prior state and it's not if not, even if it's intended to contradict or downplay other information in the article. I agree with Aquillion that the cyclic nature of an edit war is an important piece of the puzzle, and therefore am inclined to say that editing disputes that progress rather than cycle are not edit warring even if they don't usually feel great from the inside. Loki (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This idea of their being a contradiction and a lack of clarity is illusory, and caused by trying to approach this question as if interpreting a legal statute instead of a WP community body of practice. It is entirely reasonable to state that a revert "typically results" in content being restored to a previous version; the point is that the attempt to change it has been undone. This wording short-circuits a WP:WIKILAWYER / WP:GAMING loophole. For example, if the article says that what today is western Scotland "was settled from Ulster by Gaels of Dál Riata starting at least as early as the 5th century AD", and you change this to say it was the Vikings, and I then, instead of a straitforward automated revert, have it say "was settled by Dalriadic Gaels from Ulster starting in the 5th century AD or earlier", I have definitely reverted your incorrect change [the Vikings arrived in the late 8th century], to exactly equivalent meaning as the original, but not actually restored the article to a previous version of the relevant content. This is important. And everyone already seems to understand it (or will be induced to understand it quite quickly if they try to skirt 3RR or otherwise engage in editwarring by making reverts that are not to exact versions of older content).
Whether a page has a template on it that says it is an essay or information page (a sub-type of essay) is pretty much meaningless (except when an essay conflicts irresolvably with a policy or guideline, in which case the essay should be revised or deleted, or an essay advises something that the community otherwise does not support, in which case it should be revised, userspaced, or deleted). Various essays have the force of at least guidelines, they simply don't happen to be written in guideline language and don't quite serve the function of guidelines (which is circumstantially applying policy through best practices). Essays of the sort that the community takes seriously, and treats as operational, are often describing patterns of reasoning or behavior rather than outlining a rule or how to put that rule into practice. This reasonably enough can include definitions of WP jargon. (Some examples of WP essays that have enforcable levels of community buy-in are WP:5PILLARS, which doesn't even have an essay tag on it, WP:BRD, WP:AADD, WP:CIR, WP:ROPE, WP:NONAZIS, and WP:DUCK, and there are many others, especially those with the "supplement" tag, another specific type of essay.)
To the extent there is an actual wording problem between the two essays listed at the top of this thread, it is simply that Help:Revert says "results in ... restor[ation] to a previous version", without "results" being qualified in any way. The fix is just basic, noncontroverial copyediting: Help:Revert simply should be edited to agree with WP:REVERT's "typically results". However, a "Help:" page's purpose is to act as a practical instructional summary, mostly for noobs. It is not a definitional document, but a how-to. As such, it is not possible for imperfectly precise wording (pretty typical in "Help:" pages) at the former to magically shortcircuit the higher precision of the latter; WP:REVERT clearly is a defining document, making it clear that a revert need not precisely restore previous content in order to qualify as a revert, but simply undo or otherwise thwart the intent of the change being reverted – to restore the prior meaning.
This is also, obviously, the resolution of the "Nearly every edit involves undoing or otherwise negating the effects of one or more edits" pseduo-problem of 0RR. Any time a policy or procedure interpretation results in an impossible scenario, it means you are misinterpreting the policy or procedure. If you improve confusing old language in article, it might technically "undo" or "negate" a poor semantic choice by an earlier editor, but it is not a revert, because it is not attempting to thwart the intent and meaning of that other editor's input. I.e., your innocent copyediting is not a form of dispute, so it's not relevant to reversion and its place in our dispute-resolution system. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 16:13, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand this interpretation but disagree with it. I don't like this because this causes the exact problem we're all here about. I would rather have a rigid definition that can be gamed than a vague one that can still be gamed by WP:WIKILAWYERing a vague wording, and wasting all our time in the bargain. Loki (talk) 20:29, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New Page Reviewers
Hi. I thought I ask the question here regarding policy on New Page Reviewers. The current tutorial states "The purpose of new pages patrol is equally to identify pages which cannot meet this standard, and so should be deleted, and to support the improvement of those that can. Pages that pass new pages patrol don't have to be perfect, just not entirely unsuitable for inclusion." On several occasions I have noted that new page reviewers have marked pages as reviewed, but for other editors to then go in another as not meeting notability rules. If this is the case is there not a mechanism that the new page reviewers can be reported as not meeting the "just not entirely unsuitable for inclusion" criteria? Davidstewartharvey (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are saying that there are 2 editors A and B. A reviews the page, marks it as reviewed, then B marks it as not meeting notability rules. And the question is whether there is a way to report this inconsistency based on the premise that B is correct, and A made an error. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's common for editors to disagree on notability, as is clear in a number of AfD nominations, so a reviewer passing a new page that is subsequently nominated for deletion isn't necessarily a problem. If, however, you see it happening frequently with the same reviewer, you should discuss your concerns with that editor on their talk page. Schazjmd(talk)14:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something doesn't have to be unquestionably notable to pass NPP patrol. It just needs to be "not entirely unsuitable". Some NPPers will only mark at patrolled when they're very, very sure a topic is notable; others will mark it as patrolled so long as it doesn't meet some of the WP:CSD criteria, most reviewers are somewhere in between the two. Also, many people use the notability tag not to mean "this isn't notable" (really, if you're sure, you should probably start a deletion discussion), but "I don't know if this is notable, can someone who knows more about this kind of thing come check?" So even if two different reviewers might both agree that a page should be marked as patrolled, that doesn't mean that one reviewer might want to leave a notability tag where the other wouldn't. -- asilvering (talk) 00:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't heard anybody object to them? No doubt you've amassed a considerable knowledge of the spectrum of opinions on new page reviewing since I granted you the right six months ago, though. – Joe (talk) 18:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is that sarcasm? I also think that essay contains some controversial points. Don't worry about notability seems a little extreme for me. Cremastra (u — c) 16:19, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who does make significant use of draftification and probably has stronger opinions on notability of the articles I usually review, I review very differently but I don't actually disagree with that essay in that it represents a valid way of review. Just my two cents. Alpha3031 (t • c) 23:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Template protection for DYK queues?
For those not familiar with the DYK workflow, its basically anybody can review a submission, anybody can promote a reviewed submission to a prep area, but then we need an admin to move that into a queue, because the queues are fully (i.e. admin only) protected. Once in a queue, an admin bot moves things to {{Did you know}} which is transcluded onto the main page. DYK is chronically short of admins to perform the last step. That's probably the single biggest roadblock to the smooth operation of DYK, and has been for a long time.
There are a number of DYK regulars who are highly skilled and trustworthy, but for all the usual reasons don't want to subject themselves to RfA hell. I started a conversation at WT:DYK#Giving queues template instead of full protection? about the possibility of changing the full protection of the queues to template protection, and making a limited number of DYK regulars template editors. This was met with positive response, so I'm coming here to find out how the broader community would feel about this.
I know it's policy that the main page is fully protected (but I don't know where that's written down). It's unclear to me how much of the DYK queues being fully protected is baked into policy. The Template Editor capability only goes back to 2013, much newer than DYK, so I suspect it's mostly a case of "we've always done it this way". Assuming DYK could agree on the implementation details, would I be within my remit as an admin to change the protection level on the DYK queues and start handing out template editor bits? Or does that require some community-wide approval process? RoySmith(talk)17:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support the proposal (and suggest that DYK regular admins just hand out the bit as needed). In case anyone is wondering, the DYK template on the Main Page and the next DYK update would continue to be fully protected via cascading protection, so the proposal would not allow template editors to vandalise the Main Page. —Kusma (talk) 18:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't favour expanding the role of template editors simply because the permission may be easier to grant. I would prefer creating a new permission tailored for the role, such as DYK-editor or main-page-editor, which can be assigned to a corresponding user group. isaacl (talk) 23:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In theory, I agree that a finer-grained permission system would be a good thing. In practice, I suspect it would be near impossible to make that happen. In the meantime, we've got zero filled queues because no admins want to do the work, and the people who want to do the work aren't admins and don't want to be. RoySmith(talk)00:37, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that it would be impossible to gain consensus for a protection level for, say, main page maintenance. If I understand the documentation correctly, only configuration changes are needed. I just don't see template editor as a good fit: I think it requires a much higher degree of trust than editing main page components. isaacl (talk) 01:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link. As far as I can tell from that, what we'd need to do is not just create a new user group, but also create a new restriction level. That all seems excessively complicated. RoySmith(talk)11:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I said. Creating the permission level is one line in the configuration, and is necessary to be able to designate which pages can be edited by the new role. Procedurally, it's the equivalent amount of work as designating a page that can only be edited by those with the template editor role, and then assigning users to the corresponding template editor group. isaacl (talk) 15:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, the English Wikipedia configuration was modified to implement the template editor role. The change allowed admins to select the template editor permission level when protecting a page, created a template editor user group, and assigned the permission to the new template editor group and the sysop group. The same would have to be done to create a main page editor permission and a corresponding role. The new permission level is needed so specific pages can be designated as limited to main page editors. A corresponding group is needed so main page editors can be assigned to the group. The permission is also assigned to the sysop group so admins can also edit the pages in question. isaacl (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not opposed to going this route, but I'm not confident enough that I understand the details to tackle it myself. If you're willing to take on getting this created, I'll be happy to use it in lieu of my current plan. RoySmith(talk)17:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it helps, Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Template editor user right/Archive 2 § Next steps is where the work to implement the template editor role was discussed. Roughly speaking, it seems to consist of configuration changes, MediaWiki message changes, English Wikipedia page protection process changes, and English Wikipedia icon changes. I'm only tangentially familiar with most of these, so I think a better bet would be to crowdsource volunteers to help out. Hopefully an RfC would find enough interested helpers (as seems to have been the case with the template editor role, but then again, by the nature of that role it was probably more likely to do so). I was mainly thinking of what it took to implement the role in the configuration, rather than how to update English Wikipedia's procedures, so I appreciate now that it's more upfront work than re-using an existing permission level. However I think it pays off by making it easier to replenish a pool of editors able to edit the main page, since they won't have to meet the higher requirements for the template editor role. isaacl (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think fine grained permissions are a good thing. Everybody who can be trusted to edit templates or to decide what should be on the Main Page should be made an admin. The only reason we need extra permissions at all is that we do not have a working method to make new admins. —Kusma (talk) 05:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So in the interest of getting results, I would suggest to go ahead with changing the queue protection to "template protection" and assigning the template editor bit to a couple of people now. A separate permission could be a later second step that we should take if we need it. —Kusma (talk) 11:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My read on this is that they may say they want to do the work, but they don't think they'd be trusted to. And in that case, why should we trust them to? RFA is still thataway, and we're not doing anybody - not the reluctant candidates, not the current admins, not the DYK process - any favors by bypassing it. —Cryptic13:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By bypassing RfA we do almost everyone a favour. The exception is future admins who will have higher workloads because we aren't promoting enough of them. But as long as RfA is so hurtful that failed RfAs have a high chance of putting off people from editing altogether (or at least from running ever again), we need to care for other processes like DYK by finding solutions for their problems without involving RfA. —Kusma (talk) 15:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have important work that isn't getting done. We have people with the skills and desire to do that work. The only reason we can't draw a line between point A and point B is because RFA is totally broken. RoySmith(talk)15:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have the ability to draw a line between point A and point B without making it go through point C (whether that's the admin role or the template editor role). We bundle the lines together to try to avoid overhead in managing the lines. But in this case, where drawing the line would be easy given the existence of a pool of editors with the required skills and interest, I think it's less overhead to draw a direct line, rather than routing it through a different point that requires a larger set of skills. isaacl (talk) 16:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your read on this is wrong. I don't need everything about me to be vetted by voters who can be very rude for no reason, especially when the only thing I would do if I was an admin would be to update DYK. I don't want to ban editors, delete articles, or do any of that stuff. SL93 (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The bizarre thing about all this is that one of the abilities I have as an admin is being able to edit template-protected pages. Which is stupid because my understanding of non-trivial template syntax is essentially zero. The only thing I know how to #invoke is sheer terror about anything that has more than one pair of curly braces. And of all the stupid things I've seen asked at RfA, never once have I seen anybody quizzed on their understanding of template syntax. RoySmith(talk)00:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably trusted with the mop. We'd now be potentially extending that same level of trust to some DYK editors who probably won't have any template coding experience either. —Bagumba (talk) 13:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same. I can break any template the first time I use it, and I won't go near editing most except for things like adding an entry in a navigation template. I think what we need to consider is whether an editor can be trusted to know what they don't know. Valereee (talk) 16:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DYK queue editors would likely not have the "real" template coding experience typically expected by WP:TPEGRANT. They basically are just editing text. But if given the right, they would then have access to other highly-sensitive templates and their actual code. —Bagumba (talk) 12:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ActivelyDisinterested As long as they meet the first 4 criteria of WP:TPEGRANT I don't seen how they'd be more likely to break every page than any other template editor (and in reality, I think the worst a template editor could do is break a little under 20% of pages), and anything they put on the main page would have to sit in the queue first where it could be reverted before hitting the main page. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE)21:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about the other 3 criteria aren't you meant to meet all four of them? Also doesn't the main page directly transclude templates? If so the TPE right could be abused to push anything to it. As to how many pages could be effect I'm not sure how many pages something like {{cite web}} or {{short description}} is transcluded to, but I'd bet it's more than 20%. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°23:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While these are technically templates, these aren't really templates. Granting template editor rights to editors who have no experience working with templates is completely the wrong way of doing things. Gonnym (talk) 11:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, what I'm seeking here is clarification on why the queues are fully protected. Is there some specific established policy which requires that because they feed into the main page?— Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmith (talk • contribs) 11:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The DYK queues might be a good use case for pending changes level 2 (disabled for the better part of a decade), or heck, even level 1. The admin bot could be changed to copy over only the most recent approved revision. IznoPublic (talk) 03:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, this change was made a few days ago. So far, the world has not come to an end, so let's see how things go. If there's problems, we can always revisit this to see if a different solution would work better. RoySmith(talk)20:37, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Should either of the following proposals to amend the criteria for In the news be adopted?
Proposal 1: Amend the ITN significance criteria (WP:ITNSIGNIF) to state: The significance criteria are met if an event is reported on the print front pages of major national newspapers in multiple countries (examples of websites hosting front pages: [28] and [29]).
Proposal 2: Abolish ITNSIGNIF and amend the ITN update requirement (WP:ITNUPDATE) to state that a sufficient update is one that adds substantial due coverage of an event (at least two paragraphs or five sentences) to an article about a notable subject.
Proposal 3: Mark WP:ITN as historical and remove the "In The News" template from the Main Page, effectively closing the process in lieu of an alternate means of featuring encyclopedic content on Wikipedia.
Adding for the record Proposal 3: Mark WP:ITN as historical and remove the "In The News" template from the Main Page, effectively closing the process in lieu of an alternate means of featuring encyclopedic content on Wikipedia. Duly signed,⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:48, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is the kind of thing to suggest on Talk:2017 edition of the Samsung Galaxy A series. Because the respective sections are so small, you should give substantial reasons for separate articles: either that you would have substantial amounts of content to add separately to each, or that they are such substantially different entities covering different topics to have separate discussions. (An example of the latter would be if the A5, and only the A5, had extensive controversy on launch and massive explosions and lawsuits, a significant digression from the flow of the main A Series article -- that would warrant a separate article for the A5.) SamuelRiv (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Indic transliteration and WP:INDICSCRIPT
I know this is biased but I find it to be really unfair that we cannot use the scripts that were written Indian languages all because of one user did something back in 2012. Like, we could have use the scripts for cities for example. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 16:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that WP:IndicScript, for the lede and infobox, has been discussed several times from 2012 thru 2017. Since we're past 7 years from the previous discussion (at least as listed on the policy page), it's probably time to have another discussion, to get the beat from editors as to where ethnonationalist edit-warring on this is at nowadays, and consider a new RfC (even if just to reaffirm the old policy). SamuelRiv (talk) 17:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural close or move to some other forum or talk page. No substantive reason to change anything has been expressed. There's no clear proposal either. "Not fair", "one user did something" and "7-year-old RFC" are not actionable items on which it is possible to form a consensus. —Alalch E.13:13, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest starting a thread at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/India-related_articles. It looks like the issue has been brought up before, but there's been no updated information on vandalism posted, which is the key consideration. Maybe you'll want to solicit such information first by announcing your intentions beforehand, and post a notice on WP:Wikiproject India.
Anecdotally, I tried to propose a relatively small exception to the current guideline a year ago or so and was met with pretty significant pushback, so I'd expect a similar response to any suggestion along SpinnerLaserz's lines, despite being sympathetic to it myself. signed, Rosguilltalk16:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What might be practical is a change to permit especially pertient scripts (e.g. of top 2 or 3 official and majority languages in a relevant location, or those most culturally appopriate with regard to some historical person or event). The central issue is that there are dozens of writing systems extant in and around India. This "it's all because of one user" stuff is nonsense; WP:INDICSCRIPT exists to address a practicality issue. But it may need revision, to not take a throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater approach. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 16:23, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The same problems exist in many parts of the world other than South Asia. It has always struck me as rather odd that we single out Indic scripts in such a way. One by-product of this is that it can be difficult to find sources for subjects that do not have a fixed Roman transcription. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to suggest default unban appeal terms. Namely to incorporate WP:SO into it. Something along the lines of this:
Unless stated otherwise in the ban, a community ban may be appealed not less than six months from the enactment, or six months after the last declined (or inappropriate) appeal. This includes bans as a result of repeated block evasion, bans as a result of a block review by the community, and bans occurring de facto. This does not apply if there are serious doubts about the validity of the closure of the ban discussion. A ban from the Arbitration Committee may be appealed not less than 12 months from the enactment, or 12 months after the last declined (or inappropriate) appeal. None of these appeal provisions apply to arbitration enforcement blocks, such as blocks enforcing contentious topic restrictions, or community sanction blocks.
I am pretty sure that this is sensible for most bans. While the ArbCom part will require an ArbCom motion, the community part could happen almost immediately. AwesomeAasim02:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Repeating this in VPPL to get further input. I think this should be added to the Banning policy. We can further refine it to get the right wording that can then be added in one swift edit. AwesomeAasim22:47, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is more to codify what is already standard practice. Community bans are rare, but ArbCom bans are rarer. Although blocks are much more common, though. AwesomeAasim04:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to hear from people who don't know much about Korea or Korean history, but are familiar with Wikipedia style as a whole. This is a pretty major topic that would affect thousands of articles.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Its existing functions may be moved elsewhere, at the discretion of editors. Examples: FTN function could be moved to a WikiProject discussion page; it could handled by other policy noticeboards (namely RSN, NPOVN, NORN, BLPN, and AN).
Question 2: Should the Wikipedia guideline WP:Fringe theories (WP:FRINGE) be disbanded? You may give specific options for resolving guideline sections, including:
2A. Downgrade WP:FRINGE from a guideline to an explanatory essay;
2B. Deprecate and archive WP:FRINGE guidelines altogether;
2C. Merge sections of WP:FRINGE into the larger guidelines that refer to them:
Option 2C examples (this is a partial attempt at a comprehensive list): WP:V section REDFLAG cites FRINGE as main article; WP:RS has a "Fringe" section that cites PARITY; WP:N has a "Fringe" section citing NFRINGE; WP:NPOV has a "Fringe theories and pseudoscience" section as well as scattered citations to FRINGE and its various sections; WP:BLP does not cite WP:FRINGEBLP, but FRINGEBLP cites BLP and NPOV.
Affirm or reject either, both, none, with any number of suboptions (nothing must be mutually exclusive).
Reject both, WP:FRINGE has no need for any such changes. The fact is that this all arose because FRINGE POV-pushers of religious topics got angry that their pseudoscience claims were being appropriately described in our articles as pseudoscience. It's ridiculous we're even entertaining this RfC at all when that's the background context and reason for it. SilverserenC00:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact is that this all arose because FRINGE POV-pushers of religious topics got angry that their pseudoscience claims were being appropriately described in our articles as pseudoscience.
What!?’ With all due respect this is wholly divorced from the reason this came up. The specific issue was removing a peer-reviewed study demonstrating a fringe topic was not real, because that user rejected that academics at a secular university could be trusted because they were themselves Buddhist. As the person you’re accusing of being a “FRINGE POV-pusher” here I’d appreciate that struck, it’s uncalled for. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ17:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, and No.WP:FTN fulfils a necessary function on Wikipedia, and has done for many years. A centralised noticeboard is far better placed to tackle issues which very frequently involve multiple factors when considering such disputes. They are very rarely just about sourcing, just about NPOV etc. As for the guideline, it is just that - a summary of policy etc laid out elsewhere, emphasising the relevant parts of such material. There are certainly sometimes issues with the noticeboard, and quite possibly the guideline needs improvement in places to more accurately reflect policy, but the alternatives offered here seem to be based around the premise that the noticeboard is the root cause of 'fringe material' problems, rather than the material itself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. Just seems like unhelpful process-ology, with no rationale give. NPOVN and FTN and both busy enough, so making a mega-board would just create something unwieldy. WP:FRINGE is a well-established guideline and Wikipedia's handling of fringe content is one of the conspicuous successes of the Project according to academic assessments (though not, of course, according to advocates of fringe idea who are frustrated by Wikipedia's standards). The world of sources 'out there' is not becoming less contaminated by pseudoscience, misinformation and conspiracy theories. If anything, the opposite is true. So weakening Wikipedia's defences in this area would seem most unwise if the Project is to continue a knowledge-based mission. Bon courage (talk) 01:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No Those thinking the anti-fringe group sometimes overdo it might be right, but downgrading FRINGE would give much worse results. Woo nonsense attracts a lot of followers and they can swamp a topic. Ensuring that articles reflect reality is necessary for an encyclopedia based on reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes 1; Yes 2C else 2A. From our previous discussion, it took me a while before I came to this point. But I feel like WP:FTN see WP:FRINGE as a hammer and everything around them as a nail. The other noticeboards (RSN etc) handle fringe topics and fringe editors fairly regularly without a problem (and usually without bringing up any FRINGE guideline), and per the preamble the FRINGE guideline is already a patchwork of cross-references from existing guidelines. FTN moving to a WikiProject will likely change very little, which is a major part of the point -- the noticeboard does not really function like other P&G noticeboards. And back-merging FRINGE will change no policy too, which is also pretty much the point. SamuelRiv (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes/No: There's IMO no serious problems with WP:FRINGE, though I'd like some expansion of WP:FRINGE/QS and WP:FRINGE/ALT, and generally more clarification when something is not fringe. However, I feel like FTN behaves in a way that pushes a very particular hyperskeptic POV over the sources when they contradict, and that it often overfocuses on pseudoscience and woo to the point that it usually misses even obviously supernatural claims outside those domains. For this reason, I'd like it to be merged into WP:NPOVN, which currently is pretty slow and which behaves much more normally in these situations. Loki (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. FTN is and has been a valuable platform for discussing how fringe topics and POVs should, and should not, be presented in Wikipedia articles. If enacted, these proposals would considerably weaken the project by making it easier for fringe-POV pushers to populate WP articles with all sorts of unreliably-sourced, non-encyclopedic nonsense. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 02:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reject both (Linked from NPOVN) This idea seems pretty out there. With all due respect and good faith, why is this even an RfC? Seems like an obvious waste of time to suggest we remove one of the most important safe-guards Wikipedia offers, one that sets it apart from any other platform. I have also noticed increases in the amount of new users and editors doing what some may consider POV pushing (of Fringe) over the last year. Maybe due to the elections in the US, but it is noticeable. DN (talk) 02:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Total rejection of both: One of the most ridiculous and even outright insulting proposals I've ever seen on this site and that's saying something. A complete and total waste of time for everyone verging on the point of violation of Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Wikipedia is under constant, relentless attack by fringe proponents and any attempt at weakening our safeguards instead of further strengthening them should be considered extremely suspicious. If you've ever been physically threatened or witnessed attempted outing on this site by fringe groups, you'll know how outrageous this proposal is. These groups range from confused and well-meaning to organized and outright dangerous. They are not something to fetishize or give an inch. We are extremely lucky to have the editors that we do who are willing to deal with fringe topics. I personally think it is time for us to start pushing back on the lack of support or appreciation Wikipedia shows for this small group of specialized editors who do so much for the project. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it, Wikipedia keeps becoming a bigger target for special interests, and if it's going to survive into the next decade it needs to be much less open to bad actors. Ask any admin. The firehose of misinformation and stoking of bad behavior is beyond overwhelming by design, and it's only going to get much worse unless those in charge do something about it. On a lighter note, if the project wasn't working then they wouldn't even bother with us. Cheers to success. DN (talk) 04:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No: It seems fringe theories requires folks well-versed in combatting fringe theory proponents and how to deal with them. It's not a huge lift to make a separate space for fringe theory discussion, or to have the fringe theory guidelines. I see no good reason to get rid of either. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not. WP:FRINGE is a subset of WP:NPOV that helps ensure our articles on conspiracy theories, woo science, and religion remain empirical and evidence-based. These folks do great work keeping our encyclopedia free of junk. There's absolutely no way the encyclopedia would be better off without this work. comes across as WP:CANVAS. The correct way to deal with someone notifying a noticeboard that has a POV you disagree with is to do your own notifications, such as to notify a WikiProject talk page. Notifying noticeboards, article talk pages, and WikiProject talk pages is (in my opinion) never canvassing. This kind of looks like a case of an editor trying to change the entire system, instead of learning how the system works and the good reasons why it works that way. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. The guideline and the noticeboard are extremely important in helping maintain neutrality and high quality referencing in topic areas that are susceptible to POV pushing. I oppose any effort to carve out a toehold that legitimizes crank theories. Cullen328 (talk) 03:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes/2C - effectively merging FTN with other existing noticeboards like NPOVN and RSN will have the double benefit of putting more eyes on fringe issues and also breaking up the hyperskeptic cabal issues mentioned by other supporters above. Merging the guideline will have the benefit of fewer policies/guidelines. WP:FRINGE and WP:FTN are duplicative of NPOV/NPOVN. (I'd also support merging NORN for the same reasons.) Levivich (talk) 04:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My experience is that when fringe topics end up at WP:NPOV it just leads to confusion from editors with little experience in the topic, sometimes even leading to confused editors siding with the fringe proponents, wasting volunteer time all around. These aren't just NPOV concerns but often intentionally obfuscating, often organized attempts at gaming the site. We need a specialized board for these specialized matters that includes editors who are willing to do the research and the work necessary to keep the site from becoming just another fringe platform. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great, so now we can look at this claim. There's not a lot of fringe stuff on the NPOVN front page, but there are several on the most recent archive (113), from late August to late September. It seems like 'Myers-Briggs' and 'Muslim gangs' were resolved pretty well at NPOVN, while I'm not sure if 'WPATH' ever got resolved in its article. Would you have something to compare from FTN discussion resolutions? SamuelRiv (talk) 05:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I'm not playing this game. There is no question that we need specialized support for the unique needs that come with editing fringe topics and your apparent goal of removing what little support we have for this on the site raises a parade of red flags. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No to both. I do understand and respect the canvassing/'cabal' concerns, and FTN is very useful to me for finding and rehabilitating articles of fringe topics that need improvement. We definitely want more eyes on the FTN, but just merging the boards would just make things more difficult for everyone. Feoffer (talk) 05:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, No. WP:FRINGE as guideline is fine, FTN should be merged with NPOVN. In practice, FTN is WikiProject Skepticism- it doesn't really function like a notice board. In theory it could be something else, but it is not. This lends itself to a type of editing that while occasionally good constantly causes problems with some topics. In my experience, I often have thoughts on the topics raised at that board, but it's difficult and hostile to contribute to as it is far more insular and WikiProject-esque than any other noticeboard, even when I largely agree with what they're saying. As someone with an interest in "fringe topics", even when it would be extremely helpful to get other eyes on a topic from people who aren't pushing fringe (what a "fringe noticeboard" should hopefully be good for) I don't even bother due to how exhausting it seems to have to deal with the very specific hyperskeptic pov some people there push. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No no. I just wasted two hours on reading a thread that only exists because an article contained something amounting to "he's really not dead, Jim! Although a study said he is." Someone deleted it, which was an improvement, someone reverted that deletion. And now the reverter is butthurt and says the deleter is a bigot, and the idea came up of nuking the place where those two clash sometimes, and someone else started this farce just for the fun of it although everybody including the reverter said it will not fly, but everybody needs to read the thread. And it did not fly. Yeah, let's make a study to find out whether a dead person is dead, and let's start a survey to find out whether a waste of time is a waste of time. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was a study showing that people alleged to be in a state of Tukdam were in fact dead. The line adding this study got reverted, which I would normally associate with WP:PROFRINGE since it's removing evidence against a supernatural claim, but in fact was from an FTN regular who apparently objected to even the idea that one might be able to study this.
This is what I mean when I say FTN is both overactive and underactive: in its pursuit of a hyperskeptical POV it's actually caused its participants to make WP:PROFRINGE edits in this case. Loki (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, no. I'm not an involved editor but I have read this and the previous discussions with interest. I conclude that the FTN regulars deserve all the thanks and Wikilove we can send their way. MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes, no: per PARAKANYAA primarily, although i sympathize with those who disagree with the premise of this RfC in the first place. ... sawyer * he/they * talk09:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
addendum: i think the comments here and elsewhere characterizing those critical of FTN as fringe POV-pushers kind of proves the point ... sawyer * he/they * talk10:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m surprised to learn I’m just butthurt and a POV FRINGE-pusher. It’s amazing how far the game of telephone has gone considering how easy it is to scroll up and see the actual points raised. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ18:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. WP:FTN has functioned as a successful and essential forum for applying WP:CONSENSUS in order to prevent Wikipedia from becoming yet another online source of misinformation and disinformation. Of course, POV-pushers of pseudoscience and conspiracy theories don't like it. NightHeron (talk) 10:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe and No. Largely per PARAKANYAA. There are problems at FTN, and some editors there confuse anti-FRINGE with NPOV when they are not the same (the former is just as much a POV as pro-FRINGE) and with seeing bad-faith and/or pseudoscience when it isn't there (it's not pseudoscience if it doesn't claim to be scientific; there is a difference between "proven wrong", "unproven" and "unstudied"). These problems are largely behavioural rather than structural, but perhaps the structure is enabling the behavioural problems? I think a better first approach would be a detailed, structured, independent review of the behaviour at FTN (perhaps by arbcom). There is far too much wailing and gnashing of teeth that Wikipedia will be overrun by pseudoscience and "woo" if we even consider that something about how we currently deal with the topic area might not be 100% perfect, and that needs to stop - as does the automatic assumption that anyone who isn't actively against saying anything remotely positive about something that is even arguably FRINGE is a pov-pushing and trying to defend or include pseudoscience or conspiracy theories. Remember the N in NPOV means neutral not anti. Thryduulf (talk) 10:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think FTN is incredibly useful and want to keep it, but it definitely needs more eyeballs and review. There's truth in the basic realization that anti-FRINGE is an important facet of NPOV, but NPOV isn't synonymous with anti-FRINGE. Feoffer (talk) 12:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, yes The Guerrilla Skeptics are explicitly organised as an off-site cabal to push their POV on Wikipedia. They have a point but are so dogmatic in their pursuit of it that they come across as a fringe religion themselves. They seem to have a specific agenda as they constantly go after particular soft targets rather than being skeptical about the large amounts of other BS that's out there. The obsessive labelling of topics as fringe and pseudoscience is itself pseudoscientific and is so preachy and proselytising that it is counter-productive. The fringe noticeboard is clearly used to canvass by this cabal and so should be shut down. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) there was an arbcom case about gorilla skeptics a few years ago, and they were pretty much acquitted of all wrongdoing. 2) it became clear during the arbcom case that gorilla skeptics organizes off-site, and does not really use ftn or a wiki project, 3) I remember not recognizing most of the publicly identified gorilla skeptic members, whereas I recognize most of the ftn regulars –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to establish even a prima facie case that there have been conduct issues involving multiple users, much less that it is systemic, around FTN as a nexus, or that removal of the board would make a meaningful improvement. I would suggest that if this is proposed again for the same reason, a review in line with what Thryduulf proposes be conducted beforehand. Such a review could also submit evidence in the interim to boards such as AN. I doubt Arbcom would chose to take it up at this point, as community resolution methods have not been exhausted, but if they eventually do, they could simply implement as a remedy what resolutions they see fit, making the community proposal redundant. I would not be opposed to revisiting this proposal should a community review find both the requisite evidence and a need for action without ending up involving Arbcom. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meh; no. I don't have strong feelings either way about FTN, though it looks to me that the issue that prompted this is really the alleged misbehaviour of a relatively small number of individual editors rather than FTN as a whole being irrepairably flawed. Even if there is a systemic issue with FTN, I'm not seeing from reading this proposal or the above discussion any sort of argument for getting rid of or downgrading WP:FRINGE. Indeed, the people arguing for that outcome are specifically saying that it won't change policy, so... why bother? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and NoWP:FRINGE is an extension of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV and its status as a policy does a lot if heavy lifting to help prevent fringe POV pushers from spreading junk science, misinformation and fraudulent research. And, most importantly, it helps editors in general to understand the purpose of an encyclopedia. WP:FTN does a lot of the hard work to enforce this and the idea of disbanding it is absurd. If there are instances when FTN is used in a questionable way (I don't think there are many, if at all), then people should let those editors know what they are doing wrong, not disband a place where a LOT of important work is done. (Oh, and anyone who brings up GSoW in this discussion has no idea what they're talking about, are getting their information from cranks and frauds, and deserves to be WP:TROUTed.) VdSV9•♫12:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My point, in short, is this: very few of the active editors in FTN are part of GSoW. The Arbcom case has nothing to do with what people do at FTN. VdSV9•♫13:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No/No while the board occasional gets it wrong from because of hyper hatred of anything fringe, resulting in normal dispassionate treatment of some subjects being considered too friendly because they aren't hostile enough, abolishing the noticeboard or downgrading the policies/guidelines/whatever will cause much more frequent problems that are much worse. Headbomb {t · c · p · b}12:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One issue is that some editors at FTN have trouble distinguishing those trying to achieve NPOV from those promoting a pro-FRINGE POV, labelling them all as lunatic charlatans, which doesn't help anybody. Thryduulf (talk) 12:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That comment demonstrates you've completely missed the point. The failure to distinguish between NPOV and pro-FRINGE POV actively harms the encyclopaedia, and hinders the cause of NPOV and those seeking it while doing absolutely nothing to the goal of those pushing conspiracy theories that restricting the aspersions to them would not. Ideally there would be no name-calling or aspersion-casting at all, but one step at a time. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. As others have said in other ways, WP:FTN has been successful to the point where there is a lot of questioning around if it is needed are not. It continues to act as a bulwark against a significant number of groups trying to get their unproven/random musings in what should be a encyclopedic work. There is enough volume that having its own separate policy and noticeboard continues to be needed. spryde | talk12:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. While I am cognizant of the concern expressed by Andrew Davidson of off-site organization intending to push a POV, getting rid of a particular noticeboard does nothing to prevent things from happening off-site, the activities of which will likely then just move to other Wikipedia noticeboards. The discussion that we are having here is likely sufficient to bring additional attention to WP:FRINGE, so that a broader slice of the community is involved in its discussions. BD2412T12:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No/No In agreement with the above, where it appears there's more a problem that is beyond FRINGE, which is how we label those that are promoting fringe theories, which falls under NPOV and BLP concerns. As long as fringe concepts have been readily disproven by reliable sources, there's zero harm in making sure they are labeled as such, but it is a problem to further that labeling onto those that promote them without significantly strong backing to get around the POV issue. Other issues like offsite canvassing are those that are not a specific issue to FTN but misuse of WP in general, and have other remedies available to handle than to shut down a key noticeboard. --Masem (t) 13:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. Per WP:PROJGUIDE, A WikiProject is a group of editors interested in collaborating on a specific topic within Wikipedia. A WikiProject is a group of people, not a set of pages, a subject area, a list of tasks, or a category. I think the same applies to a noticeboard; functionally noticeboards and WikiProject talk pages often differ only in name. Shutting down an active noticeboard is therefore primarily a question of taking administrative action against those editors, to stop them from collaborating. That sort of action should be reserved for WP:ARBCOM. Deleting the pages and moving the functions elsewhere does not seem like it would achieve anything meaningful. WP:FRINGE is a logical extension of core policies and demoting it would be taken as an invitation to promote theories that do not align with NPOV or V.--Trystan (talk) 13:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and no. Wikipedia is a bright spot on the Interent at least in part because we really do try to comprehensively get things right, even if we often fail. Part of "getting things right" is keeping out material that is well outside what is mainstream, as represented by reliable sources. I see some comments that FTN, or some participants at FTN, are hyper-skeptical. My impression is that charge is coming in part from the failure of FTN to be sufficiently differential to extraordinary claims made by some groups. - Donald Albury15:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. Disbanding the noticeboard would have no effect other than to move discussion elsewhere, so why bother. Anyone can view or comment on the noticeboard so how would having the same discussions elsewhere make any difference. As to the idea of disbanding or downgrading FRINGE it is patently ridiculous. If editors have issues with other editors they should take it to ANI or ARBCom, rather than tilting at windmills. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°16:32, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and No. I don't think our policies and guidelines are what's in need of revision right now. The matter of concern is, to borrow Loki's words a pattern of behavior enabled by the structure in which a 'hyperskeptical' POV is pushed over and against sources and often using bigoted reasoning. When academically trained and university-associated scholars get treated by FTN participants as uncitable 'woo' again and again, , with no regard for the training of the authors or even the content of their findings, the attempt to achieve NPOV is inhibited, not helped. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Headbomb Yes, if the discipline is itself fringe, but scholarship is not made unreliable in and of itself by the scholar being a member of a particular religion, which is something people at FTN often argue. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Bob believes that magical dwarves live at the center of Jupiter, and goes "Trust me, I'm an astrophysicist, I wrote papers on the topic, I'm the foremost expert on this, magical dwarves do live at the center of Jupiter", Bob is a nutjob and their paper support Jovian magical dwarves is equally vapid and devoid of validity. Headbomb {t · c · p · b}18:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the claim in question is clearly out of step with other literature, of course. But that is not what the issue is. Someone being a member of a particular religion does not make their scholarship inherently fringe. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) What Bob does or does not believe has absolutely no relevance to whether their paper supporting Jovian magical dwarves is valid. Whether the paper is or not valid depends entirely on how reliable sources rate the content of the paper, particularly the methodology and whether the conclusions match the evidence. Thryduulf (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Bob is a member of the Church of Jove and manages to publish an article in the Journal of Vaguely Related Engineering about the striking evidence for the existence of magical dwarves, there is at least an itty bitty amount relevance that his membership in the church could serve as a WP:REDFLAG. Agreed that one might come to this conclusion anyway through source evaluation, and I absolutely accept that church membership is in princinple compatible with WP:MAINSTREAM scholarship. But there are enough examples I have seen of poor scholarship following that model that I think a complete taboo of such a heuristic is just as problematic as someone who outright dismisses a source based on the religious affiliation of the author. jps (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...but what if Bob, a member of the Church of Jove, is a respected expert who publishes research suggesting that magical dwarves do not exist? Because that's the actual analogy for the situation you're talking about. Loki (talk) 20:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. I know that is the argument that was leveled, but this isn't the full story. There was, in fact, only a claim that one means of trying to measure some phenomenon came up with a predictable null result. jps (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bob's membership of the church would still not be relevant. We judge how extraordinary claims are by how much they differ from the prevailing consensus of opinion in reliable sources, not by who makes them. We judge whether the claims are supported by sufficiently strong evidence based on how reliable sources report on them. If claims are noteworthy but have not been assessed in reliable sources then the article must express no opinion on their veracity in Wikipedia's voice (if the claims are not noteworthy we don't mention them at all). Thryduulf (talk) 20:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We judge how extraordinary claims are by how much they differ from the prevailing consensus of opinion in reliable sources, not by who makes them. This isn't strictly true. I can think of many instances where we do not use sources precisely because of who is making the claim even if the claim being made is in-line with prevailing understanding. And I'm not even arguing for this kind of strict excising. I'm just saying that we can use the identity of an author as a datapoint when evaluating the source. jps (talk) 23:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and No. I didn't expect to end up !voting in this way - I was really surprised to see the headline of the RfC notice, and immediately thought "are you kidding me?!" But having read through these discussions and thought about it for a little while, I do agree that it would be best to merge this together into the npov board. The arguments in favour of ending the noticeboard articulate something I had observed for some time but not really thought through myself. I disagree that this would have no effect except to move the discussion elsewhere. (If the discussion is moved to npov and the fringe regulars immediately overpower the npov regulars such that there really is no effect on the fringe discussions, well, that's not really an outcome that looks good on the fringe regulars trying to argue that they're not part of a hyperskeptic bloc.) -- asilvering (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral and No I have often found the fringe theories noticeboard to be helpful when dealing with fringe topics and ideas, but I agree that the purpose of the board heavily overlaps with NPOVN, and there is a evident lack of interest/activity at NPOVN (I have had several posts on NPOVN that I thought were significant issues not generate any real noticeable reponse), and perhaps merging FTN with NPOVN could sort this issue. The fringe guideline is itself good though and I see no real good reason to remove it. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and no. I see a lot of vague claims of FTN being abused by individual editors acting as an organized hyperskeptic bloc, biased FTN editors holding a hatred of anything fringe, fringe subjects being unfairly treated with hostility, etc. We would need evidence in the form of diffs to evaluate the need for actions suggested by the survey. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and Maybe 2A. Thryduulf pretty much covers it. The problem isnt FTN or FRINGE. Most of the editors there do good work and are a net positive for Wikipedia. The problem is that a handful of editors that hang out there also routinely ignore NPOV and CIVIL and, because they otherwise do good work, the system gives them a pass. Bonewah (talk) 20:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and No I clearly think FTN has issues, and I think the sheer volume of WP:PROFRINGE accusations being thrown out here and above, in the absence of any PROFRINGE actions or statements from any user should show that there’s a problem. This has gone way beyond civil in places and an inability to actually have a nuanced discussion around FTN is a symptom of the wider problem.Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ21:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
'Sorta/no’. I've long thought that the lower traffic content noticeboards, FTN, NPOVN, and NOORN would be more effective merged into a single noticeboard. Fringe is part of NPOV already, and combining the eyes from those noticeboards would address concerns about canvassing to a particular group and draw attention to discussions that generally have too few participants. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. This seems a drastic measure when no fringe policy and noticeboard serve a useful purpose and have been relied upon. Other available options include suggesting specific changes or clarifications to WP:NOFRINGE and editors productively trying to engage content experts in religious topics that have garnered the attention of FTN.MYCETEAE 🍄🟫— talk01:52, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No and No. Neither the noticeboard nor the guideline are broken. Both are necessary. Scattering the discussions from FTN across other boards would just invite forum-shopping and general confusion. If there's a conduct problem with one or more editors, take them to ANI or ArbCom. XOR'easter (talk) 03:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to note regarding some of the comments about FTN being an important safeguard, some of the last bit of our discussion above was about precisely this point. Does FTN really mitigate against fringe edits and editors? Does having a separate FRINGE guideline page mitigate similarly? Is there evidence of this in our experience? SamuelRiv (talk) 02:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe that's the sort of question to be asking before launching a waste-of-time RfC? There was no traction for your odd ideas and you were advised they were pointless. But here we are. Bon courage (talk) 02:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And nobody at all agreed with your idea to ditch the FRINGE guideline (you were told it would be a waste of time to ask). You also seemed not to understand basic things about how noticeboards work, saying for example they should not be used for content issues. This RfC just looks like a pointless way to preside over process and stoke up drama, rather than build an encyclopedia. Bon courage (talk) 03:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per my post history for that entire discussion, including the very last posts where I state my reasons for starting the RfC, I strongly ask that you strike this comment. I really should not have to take this. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Assessing, dealing with, and reporting on fringe groups require specialized editors with expertise in their topic areas. Fringe-specific boards allow for the cultivation of such editors. Additionally, fringe groups very frequently organize and brigade the site, requiring a counter-response from Wikipedia editors, for which our fringe boards and fringe guidelines allow. Given the repeated attempts at systemic gaming of the site we've seen from extremely well-funded and well-organized fringe groups, especially new religious movements, Wikipedia needs far, far, more fringe-specialized editors and it is quite frustrating to see attempts at reducing what little safeguards we have. To put it frankly, we are very lucky to have the few editors we do willing to put up with the abuse, harassment, and outright death threats that come with editing in what is by far the most stressful and outright dangerous part of Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Point: I think this association is double-edged. This stuff isn't usually the most stimulating to think about—never mind to have to fight with bad- and gray-faith strangers about else we allow the wiki to get blatantly worse before our very eyes. Not speaking about anyone or anything in particular, I'm serious, but in the broadest possible terms—I think in certain moments that dynamic can lead to a negative connotation for editors that do put up with it, something like "they like to fight" or "they're always talking about wiki detritus". Sometimes, the exhaustion shows on my conduct, and I'm not a member of this class even. Remsense ‥ 论02:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. It's time to start showing appreciation for these volunteers—they are by far putting up with the worst that the project offers and if even a single one of them sticks around, they need spines of steel. Editors who deal with the unecessary bullshit that comes with editing fringe topics need better support. It's obviously not coming from the WMF but it needs to come from somewhere. Debating removing what little support we have for them is unacceptable. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not disagreeing with you, I'm just elaborating on some of the possible reasons I think the dynamic takes the shape that it does. Reflection is worthwhile. Remsense ‥ 论02:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The entire impetus for the discussion above was the problem of FTN having non-specialist editors claiming authority on specialist science topics, in several FTN threads on the current board page. Is there a specialist in fringe theories that would be better equipped than experienced editors at RSN, NPOVN, etc? When it comes to WP, what additional skills would they have? If it's dealing with problematic fringe editors, then my challenge again is to look at the results (which we do in the prior discussion). SamuelRiv (talk) 03:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) : Is there evidence of this in our experience? In my experience, yes. In yours? Well, with all due respect, perhaps you should have reviewed the current FTN topics and, of course, the FTN archives, sufficiently to answer those questions yourself prior to initiating this RfC. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 02:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather we run the RfC for at least a day so we can see the opinion of the broader Wikipedia community who are not FTN regulars. I agree that if the writing is on the wall then there's no reason to drag it out any longer than few days rather than a week or a month Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Does FTN really mitigate against fringe edits and editors?" Yes. I would also note that from my personal experience in the realm of rhetoric, the phrase “is it really?” is often employed in the dissemination of Fringe as a persuasive device.
Does having a separate FRINGE guideline page mitigate similarly? As a matter of personal opinion, yes.
Is there evidence of this in our experience? Yes, and while examples may be given, it's important to frame the terms of what is considered acceptable evidence. DN (talk) 03:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question is clearly placed in direct reference to the discussion at the top of VPP, this page, linked at the top and bottom of the RfC. ("some of the last bit of our discussion above...") The question is asked and analyzed in detail in that discussion. I am not trying to persuade anyone by asking a question. But I do expect people who respond to an RfC to at least take a moment to glance at the preceding discussion when the RfC says that it is the culmination of that discussion. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do expect people who respond to an RfC to at least take a moment to glance at the preceding discussion There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the people who have responded to this RfC have failed to do that. That comment is a borderline, if not actual, violation of WP:AGF. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 04:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand how someone may see my reply as somewhat pointy, but for the record I don't take offense. I would guess they may be frustrated at the results they are getting and trying to make sense of why some editors are not reacting as positively as they might have hoped. DN (talk) 04:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strike that. I made clear above before starting the RfC the extent of my expectations. Responses I have gotten here have been borderline, tangential, or directly insulting to my character as a person and an editor. I'm becoming short because nobody, not an IP, not me, deserves that shit. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you didn't want pushback, you might have tried showing the slightest ounce of concern or respect for the handful of editors who actually deal with the threats, attempts at outing, and harassment that come with editing in fringe spaces. It gets so bad in these areas that it's amazing no one has been hurt yet: I know I have personally been repeatedly threatened and you can easily find attempts at outing me and I am just one editor. Without question, the small group of volunteers who gather at the fringe noticeboard and apply Wikipedia's fringe policies are the only thing keeping the website from being overrun from unrelenting, well-funded, and organized attempts at converting it into a fringe platform. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think personal dangers experienced by editors, however important, are not relevant to this particular discussion (and oddly the one credible RL threat I've had on Wikipedia has been as a result of editing a NRM topic). What is concerning is the aspersions and othering in these VPP discussions, with "FTN" being used collective noun and proxy for casting aspersions. Warrenmck's continued use of this tactic is particularly shabby, but they are not alone. Bon courage (talk) 04:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is relevant because it is apparently something we have to put up with as fringe topics editors and nobody seems to be discussing the real world danger. Without going into too much detail, I dealt with a group of editors who attempted to stalk and potentially harm me, hunting down some poor individual (who wasn't even me) at his workplace, among a few other instances. Editing non-fringe topics isn't likely to trigger this kind of thing — this is one of the reasons I think we need unique support systems and forums for editing on fringe topics. After nearly 20 years of this, I have no shortage of horror stories. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I sympathise, but surely you can see that if we extend special treatment to editors because of things that heppen (or which they say happen) in RL then ... that way madness lies. I can think of non-fringe topics that are also fraught if one's real life identity is known (abortion, organized crime, espionage ...) Bon courage (talk) 05:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, some type of support system needs to exist, or at least a true zero-tolerance policy, but I don't see that happening as long as the site remains little more than a cash cow for the Wikimedia Foundation. In any case, it was foolish of me to edit in these spaces to begin with, I initially followed the breadcrumbs from hijacked folklore-related articles, and these kind of discussions just make it more obvious to me that I should much more narrowly focus what little time I have for Wikipedia these days on non-fringe matters. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m actually not okay with you continually referring to my real concerns as a “tactic”, you’ve done nothing but assume an underlying agenda or crusade on my part here and your inability to actually even acknowledge that the concerns and criticisms raised may be legitimate and being raised in good faith is pretty much exactly one of the problems I see with FTN. I wasn’t even engaging yo, here. If you can’t assume good faith, then that’s not on me. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the discussion/catalyst for the RfC, it did not look like there was a consensus for it, but you seemed to take it upon yourself to do it anyway. Are the reactions all that surprising? DN (talk) 05:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not go in depth, but I would say I looked it over. I give you points for courage and assume you are acting in good faith. I had no involvement there so my opinions on the legitimacy of this endeavor are strictly based on face-value. Best of luck. Cheers. DN (talk) 04:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's certainly true there are problem editors in this space, just not in the way some editors seem to think. If you're unaware of how Wikipedia noticeboards work, or how FRINGE is generally handled on Wikipedia, you might get the idea from these VPP discussions there was some kind of problem with WP:FRINGE, rather than a quixotic campaign from one or two editors with bees in their bonnets. Bon courage (talk) 04:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
rather than a quixotic campaign from one or two editors with bees in their bonnets
and yet other editors see a problem, and when they point this out you’ve disagreed that they see the same problem as I do over their objections. You need to knock off the aspersions yesterday. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see how not editing the article when what I was proposing was a contentious move is an issue. Editing an article isn’t the only way to work on an article. Talk and noticeboard discussions prior to sweeping changes are perfectly reasonable, and the only way to disagree that “Panspermia” is still used widely to refer to what Wikipedia calls Paeudo-panspermia is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, not any kind of reasoned position, because it’s clearly true. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your dogmatic position was "It’s absolutely erroneous to say “panspermia is a fringe theory”. It took a lot of discussion to get you to recognize this was wrong. Bon courage (talk) 13:35, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s not wrong, and the “convincing” was people saying “it’s wrong” and providing no comment whatsoever on the evidence provided. For anyone reading a long, my argument was not that the fringe theory panspermia is anything other than a fringe theory, just that the same term is used in the literature for the one that isn’t a fringe theory, which is demonstrably true. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ13:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You were shown a load of journal sources and had to concede it's not "absolutely erroneous" to say panspermia is a fringe theory but that both terms are used, seemingly with panspermia being the most common term for the fringe theory. Bon courage (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
both terms are used
this was the claim.If both terms are used in the literature to refer to the non-front theory then “panspermia is a fringe theory” is misleading, rather a specific fringe as hell theory which is also referred to as “panspermia” is distinct from the “panspermia” used by scientists, which is why my proposal was “Panspermia (astrobiology)” and “Panspermia (fringe theory)”, not making some case that the fringe theory isn’t a fringe theory. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ14:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems pointless to continue, so you can have the WP:LASTWORD if you want. Editors can see what actually transpired if they wish, and see the consensus crystalized in the relevant articles. Per the sources, panspermia is the fringe theory and pseudo-panspermia the non-fringe one. If this turned your prior understanding on its head, that's not a problem with FTN but with published knowledge itself. Bon courage (talk) 14:46, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per the sources, panspermia is the fringe theory and pseudo-panspermia the non-fringe one. If this turned your prior understanding on its head, that's not a problem with FTN
I’m a WP:SME in meteorites. There’s a reason I was easily able to provide a huge pile of sources disagreeing with the characterization on Wikipedia, and it’s not because I’m WP:PROFRINGE trying to pick sources to soften the stance on the absurd panspermia fringe theory.
At no level do I expect anyone here to take my SME perspective on this (hello, Essjay controversy), but I do expect self-described skeptics to re-evaluate a previously held stance in the face of evidence, which didn’t happen and that’s one of the issues I see with FTN. FTN is mistaken in their assessment of this and I was able to provide plenty of sources, but that didn’t matter, which strongly informs my perspective of FTN as engaged in WP:POV editing. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ16:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because, without me even commenting on this vote going on, it keeps getting presented as an unsubstantiated personal crusade on my part rather than any sort of genuine concern and good faith attempt to address that, and the above example is a pretty good one for FTN rejecting sources that counter a specific anti-fringe POV being used to edit even when nobody, at all, is taking a WP:PROFRINGE perspective.
But broadly you’re right, and it’s clear this proposal is going nowhere. I hope that nobody’s taking some of the above characterizations uncritically at face value. I’m going to make a sincere effort to disengage here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ16:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've been loosely following the discussion and have reread it, I'm not ready to enter a comment yet but my initial impression is that there isn't a sufficient case for such a drastic action. I'm not really seeing much evidence that this is definitely a systemic issue vs one of a few users, if any. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no coherent case. As the OP admitted, this should have been at WP:ANI because it's really a complaint about users. Just not delivered in an up-front way. This ruse is probably the root of this entire mess because some users have become confused into believing it was ever about genuine issues with FTN/FRINGE themselves. Bon courage (talk) 05:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this ruse
You seem incapable of engaging with this thread, from the start, without accusing me of a secret agenda, engaging in ruses, having an axe to grind with specific editors, and engaging in WP:PROFRINGE behaviour. You’re beyond out of line here, Bon, and if you’re not actually going to read the discussion you’re engaging with without passing it through a conspiratorial lens then you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your own approach. You’ve constantly misrepresented arguments, decided it’s acceptable to cast me as some lying pro-fringe editor trying to sidestep normal pathways of dealing with issues, and engaged in strawman after strawman. The reason this entire thread has been derailed away from any discussion about the topic raised is partially because you showed up accusing me of an agenda from the very first reply you made and wildly misrepresented the entire thing from that first post, and you continue to do so.
It's not an aspersion. I'm criticising you specifically for couching what you have admitted is an ANI/user issue in opaque complaints about an entire noticeboard. Predictably, this has caused a big old mess. Bon courage (talk) 13:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I said specific behavior, which is recurring from a large number of users, was the impulse for a policy discussion about something that was leading to those behaviours. As @Hydrangeans agreed, it’s reasonable to want to seek a resolution outside of sanctions. You then extrapolated the discussion to be “that’s what this is exclusively about” and have refused to budge from a position of accusing me of lying about my motivations for the VPP thread repeatedly, ignoring the entire context of the statement you’re repeating like some kind of spell that shows I’m engaging with this whole process nefariously. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ16:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're "lying". I think you're wrong on the facts and damagingly oblique and confusing in your approach. Anyway, we shall see from the RfC how convinced the community is. Bon courage (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BTW the discussion you're referencing is difficult to parse in terms of understanding why this RfC is up. Your last comment there was..."Eh, I think it's worth asking just because it's up here, and it closes it out. A RfC can ask two questions. I'll post it in a few minutes."DN (talk) 05:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The most obvious problem with noticeboards is canvassing, where members feel emboldened to skirt civility because there is a group of like minded supporters to dog whistle for help. The noticeboard should be held to higher standards of civility, and have a lower bar for sanctions. Society works this way, positions of public trust (politicians, police, teachers) can get hit hard when they cross a line. The fringe group have a responsibility to behave well, or else; just because the other person has a fringe view is not a reason to act like a jerk. What we need is a noticeboard guideline and set of rules so members understand the issues with noticeboards and best practices. -- GreenC06:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's practically impossible to WP:CANVAS at noticeboards, as they are so well watched. Calling for assistance is often the point. BLP questions? Ask at BLPN; original research issues? NORN; questions of FRINGE? FTN. Most fringe topics are WP:CTOPS so realistically editors are already on notice to be on best behaviour. Bon courage (talk) 06:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Calling for assistance is often the point, you can call that canvassing, or "assistance", whatever you like. Noticeboards can and often do become a place to "call for assistance" ie. getting like-minded people to help you in a dispute. Anyone who denies that is not being honest. I've done it, I've seen others do it, it's very common. Since we believe we are doing it for a higher cause, and believe we are right, most people won't even recognize it as a problem, rather see it as doing the right thing. It's human nature to collaborate towards a goal, it should not be avoided. But it can be regulated through guidelines. Noticeboards are different from normal random editor involvement in a page. -- GreenC14:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Getting more eyes via an appropriate noticeboard is a way to widen and deepen consensus and helps the Project. Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant and all that. Of course editors hate in when they "lose" because of extra transparency over a particular point of contention. Some of them might even bear grudges: some people hate "FTN"; some people hate admins; some people even hate Wikipedia. Bon courage (talk) 14:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is how neutral the notice is, not the notice itself. Otherwise notification of any project (literally a group of editors all interested in the same subject) would be canvassing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°16:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Above, people accuse FTN of being Wikiproject Skepticism. But I'm more religious studies and anthropology, and I find articles I can improve and expand via FTN. Just merging it into NPOVN would make it harder for me to spot where I can be of use. Isn't there some technical way we can keep FTN separate, but also transclude it on to NPOVN so people there see it? Feoffer (talk) 12:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The whole "merge noticeboards" idea just sounds like a kind of punishment beating fantasy to teach "FTN" a lesson. It wouldn't achieve anything to change the work being done, just make a bigger more unwieldy noticeboard with editors being bothered with more threads they aren't interested in (already a problem when watching most noticeboards). Hell - why not merge all the noticeboards into one? Bon courage (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Feoffer Well people and sources that are related to "skepticism" (the community/discipline/whathaveyou, not the general concept of skepticism) have been interested in topics that relate to anthropology and religion, so I don't really think that defeats the charge of being more-or-less WikiProject Skepticism. I understand its usefulness - despite almost never contributing, I find it to be an interesting place to find topics I would want to work on/would be able to improve - once it's been a month and the topic has been archived so I don't have to deal with what comes with posting on the noticeboard. The problem is the board shares a very specific hyperskeptic POV that conflicts badly with many topics and is often unnecessarily hostile, which leads to canvassing. When raising an article there the problem is often solved, and several more are introduced. Or at least how that's how I feel from lurking on the board.
I'm well aware that merging into NPOVN won't actually happen despite voting for it, but I considered saying that less waffling then hey, it probably shouldn't be deleted but something has to be done about how this works in practice but I know nothing will ever be donePARAKANYAA (talk) 18:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ජපස I mean people who take a hardline stance on many of the issues and interests associated with "skepticism", to the point of being hostile/aggressive and accusing people of pushing fringe when they are not, or labeling things as fringe or debunked more aggressively than they are in the actual literature (someone made a very good post about this before but I cannot find it).
Often, people are actually pushing fringe and it's fine but sometimes an issue is not so clear cut and everyone has blown it up out of proportion and then the article is unbalanced. In fairness that is not exclusive to the fringe board. I was not using the word "hyperskeptic" as a conscious neologism, merely referring to people who are well, hyper-skeptical. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What does "accusing people of pushing fringe when they are not" mean? How does one objectively determine that this has happened? I, for one, have always argued that people can be WP:PROFRINGE without necessarily believing the fringe theory being promoted. Devil's advocates exist, for example, and if the actions of an account are functionally equivalent to promoting a fringe theory, I do not shy away from pointing that out. Does that make me a hyperskeptic? If so, where do you draw the line? jps (talk) 18:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ජපස "Pushing fringe when they are not" means, to me, accusing someone of pushing fringe when the relevant consensus is not actually deeming that belief fringe; being the minority view, for example, is not strictly fringe. Over correction. As to how one can tell I don't know, I'm not pointing out any individual's behavior (or I would have taken it to ANI), more the pattern I have noticed over time looking at the noticeboard. I don't know you or the way you edit, as I have not watched your edits.
Also why would someone promote a theory they themself do not believe in/get material gain from? I don't get what you mean in that sense. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the attempt to decide whether a belief is "strictly fringe" or not is perhaps taking Wikipedianisms too far. Surely there is a spectrum of consensus understanding and there is also a contextual basis for an argument. Trying to decide that an idea is being called fringe when it isn't strikes me as an endeavor that is just not well-posed.
The reason people do it can be for a lot of reasons, but out of a sort of sense of justice or support for the underdog, I have seen people make arguments here that Wikipedia has been overly mean to this-or-that fringe group. What sticks most in my head were some now long-gone admins who policed the biographies of climate change deniers some 15 years ago or so. jps (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is a spectrum of consensus, so it doesn't have to be 100% declared that as long as it is generally accepted to be, but the problem I find is that the board sometimes overreacts and declares things much more fringe than they actually are, out of proportion. If it is in proportion it is fine.
The trouble I have with this kind of complaint about "out of proportion" reactions is that it requires judging what exactly that "proportion" should be. That's where WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA come into play, but this seems a more behavioral/cultural matter that is unrelated to the existence of a noticeboard or a content guideline. jps (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I think it's fair to judge if posting things on a noticeboard often gives a result that has a specific tilt one way, that posting your concern somewhere else would not have. You could take the same exact issue to NPOVN or FTN - as it is in the scope of both, and have two completely contradictory proposed solutions. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the board sometimes overreacts and declares things much more fringe than they actually are, out of proportion Not to be overly dense, but do you have any specific examples of that behavior from FTN that you can share here? Any diffs? If fringe claims are supported by independent, reliable, secondary sources but are nonetheless dismissed as a matter of course at that noticeboard, then a broad-stroke criticism about "out of proportion reactions" might have merit. But without such evidence... JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In sceptic discourse elsewhere I've seen people accused of "promoting pseudoscience" because they wished to discuss something (reflexology in this instance) with more nuance than ridiculing the whole thing. Thryduulf (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's amusing that some people are willing to throw around the word 'hyperskeptical' but as yet the concept of 'hypercredulous' hasn't been put on the table in this discussion. Bon courage (talk) 03:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen people accused of "promoting pseudoscience" because they wished to discuss something (reflexology in this instance) with more nuance Because we are still discussing FTN (I think), I do not recall any such discussion there, but my memory is not exactly fabulous. In any case, I am unaware of any discussions - or sceptic discourse if you prefer - at FTN where "nuance," if supported by independent, secondary sources, has resulted in people being accused of "promoting pseudoscience." Perhaps some diffs would be in order, as I might be wrong about that. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reflexology discussion was several years ago not on Wikipedia so I cannot give you diffs of it. From memory the nuance sought was something along the lines that the act of massaging the feet can have benefits to the feet and things that help you relax can be good for overall health so even if the claims about massaging a specific part of the foot curing an ailment in some other part of the body are rubbish (my gut feeling is they probably are, but I've not looked), ridiculing the whole thing as useless/harmful (I can't remember which it was) was too blunt. They were accused of trying to promote reflexology, of believing in pseudoscience, etc. for those comments. I've seen similar sorts of attitudes from some editors at FTN in the past (not related to Reflexology, I don't think I've ever read a discussion about that on Wikipedia, it's been a good couple of years at least since I've even read our article about it). I can't point to anything specific without doing research I haven't got time to do right now, but I'm clearly not alone in getting these sorts of feelings about the noticeboard. Thryduulf (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will freely admit that people have less than warm feelings about the noticeboard. But I'm not convinced that this is necessarily a bad thing.
What you have reminded me of is a similar slate of complaints about the way certain subjects were described. The argument goes, "Even if proponents sometimes employ pseudoscientific arguments and the system itself lacks evidence for efficacy, if the practice or belief is mostly harmless, then why beat people over the head with the lack of evidence or labeling it with derisive labels?"
I think the problem with this kind of accommodationist approach is that it can easily slip into a kind of dishonesty in presentation. This is the fundamental friction that happens with the question of how one approaches these subjects stylistically.
As someone who occasionally reads and comments on the board I'm not a 'skeptic', let alone a 'hyperskeptic'. This again appears to be about individual behaviour not the board, behavioural issues should be handled at ANI or ARBCom. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°18:33, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying everyone who has ever posted there has that point of view, but relative to other places on the project it is tilted a certain way. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As above, do you have any actual evidence (that is, diffs) to support your broad - and vaguely aspersional - claim that "[FTN and editors who comment therein are] tilted a certain way," a "tilt" that makes it unworthy of retention? Anything at all? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds like the endless "notifying projects is canvassing" discussions (it's not). A noticeboard isn't a private off-site group, anyone can post there or watchlist it, so closing it wouldn't change the behaviour you're concerned about. There are routes for dealing with behavioural issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°22:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Problems with 'reliable sources' and 'original research'
Dear Editors, I have not posted here before but have been advised to do so by your volunteer Responder.
I wish to request some flexibility in the No original research' policy.
We were recently working on a 19th century lady who has a Wiki page, but about whom only one book has, I think, been published and that book has her date of birth incorrect along with a few other aspects of her life.
But when we tried to change the birth date as we have her birth and baptism registrations from expert genealogists, WIki told us that constituted 'original research' and as the book was published it must be deemed to be a 'reliable source'.
Sorry but I am astonished.
So many publications contain inaccurate material (not deliberately) and if there is only one published source one apparnetly cannot refute it without another. This doesn't seem workable.
The whole matter reminds me of my school history teacher who asked us for one lesson to bring into school different newspapers all published on a certain day. We then had to read the same item of news in all the different newspapers to show us how very different they were according apparnet sources and statements of 'facts'; political leaning; the experience and background of the journalist authors and their own opinions, etc. Specifically the teacher wanted to emphasise that just because it is published and in print - it does not mean that it is true and accurate !
I see that you have tried to address this under your 'reliable sources' heading, and I am not suggesting that the published book deliberately made errors.
However surely there must be provision in WIki for correcting entries which were made in good faith at the time but can now be shown to be incorrect. And if it is a birth and parentage then usually the 'proof' lies in the birth records of the state or country in which they were born and not in another publication. I hope you see what I mean. Stiperstones (talk) 21:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have you considered having an expert publish a paper or article on the subject with the correct information? That is generally the most straightforward way to address this sort of thing, especially so far in the past. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would also note that there may also be a way to use the birth and baptism registrations directly as primary sources, but that is much more context dependent. The birth and baptism registrations might also not be accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I havent used the community pool before so Im sorry if this isnt in the right village. mobile wikipedia starting today as for some reason started auto directing me to en.m.wikipedia.org instead of the regular en.wikipedia.org. even if i directly remove the ".m" or "m.", it will just autodirect to it again. I really hate it, and find it unbearable to use and love the regular english language wikipedia much more. I dont know what is causing this problem. I havent seen anyone discussing this on either the wikipedia subreddit (where usually any updates are discussed) or on Wikipedia:News. I greatly appreciate any help with this, thank you! 92.236.211.53 (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your quick response! I already tried this and it unfortunately results in it providing the literal desktop version of the website, resulting in large amounts of negative space and awkward text placement next to images due to website trying to work for the horizontal mobile. the site worked perfectly for mobile prior. is this happening on your phone too? 92.236.211.53 (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
im typing from desktop as i also learned today that my phone's ip (this same ip) was caught up in a rangeblock to block a specific user(but is now resolved?). i thought just now that this might be whats causing this but i just made account on mobile and it still autodirects to en.m.wikipedia. i have no idea what to do 92.236.211.53 (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The behavior you're experiencing is how it has always worked. The "workaround" Primehunter provided is working how it has always worked. There isn't a way to "fix it". The closest thing you can do is have an account, change the account's skin preference, and then use the "use desktop" link when you are logged in and end up on the mobile website. Perhaps this is sufficient for you. Izno (talk) 18:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I went back through screenshots I took and saw that you and Primehunter were right, it has always been "en.m.wikipedia". I think there's been an update to mobile Wikipedia's base, light colour scheme that caused the add-on I was using, darkreader to render it differently.
I do notice that the text on tables is larger, and colours are in my opinion not working well together either in the official dark mode or using my add-on on light mode.
Previous mobile Wikipedia colour scheme (lightmode+darkreader), from 28th of April: https://imgur.com/a/up24a8G
Is there anyway to go back to how it was previously because I really do prefer how it was literally just yesterday? I'm sincerely sorry for the misunderstandings 92.236.211.53 (talk) 19:33, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a higher contrast between the letters and the dark background, the purple that lists clicked-on links is a lighter purple so you have to strain your eyes more to discern it, the text on tables is larger than it needs to be while the text on the rest of the articles is currently still at their previous very good and readable size (shown in the imgur comparison linked above), and I dont get how that happened.
I dont know how else to describe it, but it looks like there is a white or blue filter over the articles that makes my eyes hurt. I can make another imgur comparison if that would help explain what im reffering to (just two image links this time tho). 92.236.211.53 (talk) 15:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ive made an account and it hasn't reverted the UI to how it previously was sorry.
?useskin=timeless is working very well thank you. It's a hassle to paste it to the URL for each new article I click on since it resets to the awful default on every new link or page loaded or when the editl is opened. Is there anyway to make it the default, since it will also be bad for when I'm reading with mobile data, having to load the site twice. Thank you very much regardless! 92.236.211.53 (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. You can make it the default by creating an account, logging in with it, then going to your Preferences, and under "Appearance" select the Timeless skin, then Save. But that's what Izno told you five days ago. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits)21:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the late reply. I've logged into this account and and selected timeless in appearance but despite that it's still not automatically going through! Also. I apologize to inzo, I don't think I understood what they are saying then. AssanEcho (talk) 20:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the very late reply, about auto directing me to en.m.wikipedia.org instead of the regular en.wikipedia.org: It might've occurred due to a recent update to chrome and other chromium browsers. After this update, browser will always try to give you the mobile view, only way avoid it is to turn on the "desktop view by default" option in the browser settings. Vestrian24Bio (TALK)12:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
its perfectly fine, The main issue now is me trying to find a way to get timeless skin to be the default on mobile as it still autodefaults to the standard, large text on tables and brightercontrast that i dislike. i used firefox on my mobile device as the default and primary browser. thank you very much for the help regardless! 92.236.211.53 (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This script doesn't work on chromium mobile browsers with mobile view (at leasts not anymore), just tried it. Vestrian24Bio (TALK)09:57, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Over the past few weeks I've been occasionally getting logged out unexpectedly, despite ticking the "remember me" option every time. Most recently it's happened twice in the past ~24 hours. It always happens when I've been idle for a while, but only on the order of hours not days. I'm not aware that I've changed any of my settings recently. Thryduulf (talk) 20:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if this sequence of actions has a trigger in it.
explicitly log out on one machine (this invalidates all login cookies on all devices)
log in to en.wp on a different device, selecting "Keep me logged in (for up to one year)". I now have a fresh new login cookie
Microsoft informs me that updates require installation, so I finish what I am doing ...
... close Firefox, go for "Start"→"Power"→"Update and restart", wait an age. Make coffee. Clear a pile of snailmail. Open Firefox ...
... and back to my watchlist. One edit adds an image to an article, which I am suspicious about, so:
visit Commons. It says I am not logged in and should reload the page. In my experience, this never works, but following a different commons link does; so I go to the page history. I am now shown as logged in.
Still on Commons, I follow a link to en.wp - I am not logged in
Return to commons, visit another page, still logged in
Not getting automatically logged in on some wikis sounds like some sort of anti-tracking protection in your browser. Commons and Meta share the same parent domain with login.wikimedia.org where the central session cookie is stored so browser restrictions on cross-wiki cookie access are more relaxed.
@Tgr (WMF): I think you missed something - my proper login (asking me to enter name and password) was on English Wikipedia. When I went to Commons and logged in there, I became logged out on Wikipedia, but remained logged in on Commons. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the logged out part is the bug Matma Rex linked. I'm just saying Commons and Meta login being more "sticky" on some browsers is expected - your enwiki session somehow went missing, your central session on login.wikimedia.org remained, and then other wikimedia.org wikis can recover the session from there but wikis on other domains can't. Tgr (WMF) (talk) 21:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK it's not random but it is replicable:
On en.wp, log in (full login using Special:UserLogin, with Username/Password)
Click this link: commons: - observe that you are logged in
Use the browser's "back" button to return to en.wp
Press F5 to reload the page - observe that you are not logged in
Click this link: commons: - observe that you are still logged in at Commons
I'm not sure how this could be connected, but I've noticed recently (a few weeks?) that sometimes when I go back to my watchlist after looking at/editing a linked page, I get an earlier version of the watchlist. I've just assumed it has something to do with caching, as clearing the cache brings up the most recent version of the watchlist. Donald Albury19:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Problem with cite web
There appears to be a problem with {{cite web}} and related templates on some pages - see, for example, Beroidae, where all the references display "Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration at line 2083: attempt to index a boolean value." rather than the reference. The references are displayed correctly in preview mode, with no template errors shown in the editor. I'm using Firefox with the Monobook skin. Tevildo (talk) 22:25, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is usually caused when the Citation Style 1 module components used by the cite templates are updated and are out of sync for a few moments. Some pages are re-rendered and cached during that short time, and they can throw errors when new code tries to call older code and fails in some way. With so many millions of pages, it is inevitable that at least a few pages will be affected. Null-editing affected articles re-renders them with all of the updated module components. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The code that is emitting that error message was first added at the 23 March 2024 module-suite update. There was another update 17 August 2024. I do not recall seeing this error message before the 17 August update. It is possible that Editor Jonesey95 is correct. Still, I wonder because that particular bit of code does not rely on any other cs1|2 module. It should work so long as there is a MediaWiki connection between commons and en.wiki.
The code uses tabular data stored at commons (c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab). The data in that table are supposed to be returned by mw.ext.data.get() in a Lua sequence of sequences. The error message suggests that the call to mw.ext.data.get() is returning a boolean value; could be true, could be false. Don't know; a boolean return is not described in any of the (very limited) documentation that I can find about the function. Does anyone here know? If a boolean is a proper return, what does it mean?
If this persists, I'm afeared that I will need to revert the code that fetches the data from commons. Disappointing that. I prefer updating that small data table when necessary rather than editing both the sandbox and live cs1|2 modules...
Thanks for that. I suspect that you are correct. Alas, I don't speak .php but it seems that at line 45 an attempt is made to fetch the raw page content from the local cache. Failing that, an attempt is made to query the database. If that too fails, I think that $result is set to false which is the return value that Scributo is complaining about. But, clearly, in this case, the page (and therefore its content) exists so JCLuaLibrary::get() should never return false, right?
I also can't write php but getcontent appears to try to get the stuff from local cache again, then if that fails parses the title and then tries to retrieve the content from the database, setting the content to false if parsing the title fails?
I do see a comment in the parsetitle function about things being null in "wierd cases" followed by variables being set to false, so there might be some edge cases where the table data fails to show up even though the table exists? Either way it seems that there is some undocumented behaviour in that false is a valid output from mw.ext.data.get(), seemingly in the event of an error.
As far as fixing this goes I think the citation module would need to check if the result of mw.ext.data.get() is false and if so so just skip doing the bound checks? 86.23.109.101 (talk) 00:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this not just a server side connection issue though? English and Russian Wikipedia are not in the same server cluster as Wikimedia Commons. Snævar (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
just a server side connection issue? (emphasis added) I would think that that is not something trivial. If the problem is a connection issue, wouldn't we be seeing some sort of failure when attempting to fetch images from commons?
In this case, JCLuaLibrary::get() apparently knows that the tabular data page exists – try this in the Debug console:
=mw.ext.data.get ("CS1/Identifier limits.ta") → Lua error: bad argument #1 to "get" (not a valid title).
I have not seen any of those error messages and, so far as I know, none have been reported. This suggests to me that there is something other than a connection issue that is causing =mw.ext.data.get() to return false.
I mean an temporary connecting issue, as the cache of the article has expired, the pages are fetched again and just happen to stumble on an temp connection issue, which is then fixed minutes later, but by then it is too late. That is also why an purge/null edit works, because minutes or hours have allready passed and the connection is fine by that point. Checking the connection now would not tell me anything. I think only a WMF dev can be absolutely sure, users do not have the tools to check this.
If I search for "Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration at line 2083" 70 results are returned. If I purge the first entry and update the search there are 57 results. If I purge the first entry and update the search it goes back to 70 results, and purging and refreshing makes it 57 again. I can just keep repeating this, the same articles appear at the top of the search results (different articles for each set of search results). Without performing a purge or dummy edit the results stay the same. The entries also don't update, very few of the entries actually had the error message and those were corrected by purging. This doesn't change the result. I thought this was just the search being slow to update, but this issue has been reported a couple of times previously at Help talk:Citation Style 1. So I've been searching and purging any I find. Some of the entries in the search haven't had this error in weeks. I don't know if this relates to the 2083 error, or a separate issue with search but it's repeatable and weird. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°21:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I need an advice how to split rows/lines in a wiki-userbox
I have been getting the same problem with the HT sources for a few months now, although every other sources seem to work fine. Vestrian24Bio (TALK)12:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Infinite JS errors?
I happened to disable pop-ups on a Wikipedia page, using some unintended key combination. I now get an infinite number of the following pop-up messages
Thanks, that really wasn't my point. I know where the error is coming from, more or less, and it is not an issue for me as I only had one page in this odd state. However the situation where the gadget "Show an alert when you encounter JavaScript errors" is popping up perpetually is indicative of some underlying design issues. Whether they should be addressed is up to anyone who thinks it's worth doing and has the ability, desire and time. Feel free to discuss. All the best: RichFarmbrough14:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]
@Polygnotus The reply tool is not designed to be easily customizable by the end user. If you wish to request a new feature for everyone, you can do so at mw:Extension talk:DiscussionTools. If you're trying to write your own WP:USERSCRIPT to modify the reply tool, you'd need to do something like $('.oo-ui-toolbar-tools:not(.oo-ui-toolbar-after)').append(CODE_FOR_YOUR_NEW_BUTTON) . --Ahecht (TALK PAGE)17:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ahecht: Thank you. I would've written my own userscript but they use some kinda weird dummy textarea while the real thing is actually a bunch of divs. Terribly confusing for a techdinosaur like myself. I would have to dive in the code to figure out a way to add my own buttons. I have posted a request on mediawiki.org. Polygnotus (talk) 17:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Achmad Rachmani According to our uptime stats, the last outage was on September 17, so I think it may be an issue on your end. This is assuming you're talking about xtools: as a whole, and not statistics for a specific user/page. Sometimes queries time out when you look up stats for a very prolific user, but I don't think that is what you're referring to. — MusikAnimaltalk16:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure this came up a year or two back, but I can't find it. I can't even remember if it's a browser-specific thing or a website-specific thing, but it's to help you find the right place on the page when there are no handy anchors. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It used to be Chrome-specific (introduced in 2020), but Safari and Firefox have added support for it recently too (in 2022 and just this month, respectively). [33]Matma Rextalk15:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
URL fragment text directives are defined by a W3C draft. As noted by Matma Rex, it does seem to be supported by the newer versions of many browsers (though Safari lacks CSS styling support, except in a prelease version on the desktop). isaacl (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is usually a good idea ;). My personal opinion is that it adds little value to the URL, especially above and beyond a quote in the relevant citation template where actually necessary. And that way we have a permanent record locally rather than relying on text which might change externally. Izno (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going to remove these, should we also remove traditional URL fragments that can only target either an id= attribute, or the name= attribute of an <a> tag? I don't see the point: both are harmless, both aid in reaching the appropriate part of a web page, neither of them is connected with tracking. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:25, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My why align with that of Izno :) I don't see text fragments as being stable over longer periods of time unlike anchors. I'm also unsure if they can be technically considered to be leaking identifiable information (since you could potentially reverse engineer what a person was searching for by looking at the highlighted text?) Sohom (talk) 01:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a target to support an URI fragment is an intentional act to define an addressable subordinate resource, so I agree that is a more stable reference. I can see situations where using a text fragment may be helpful (say, to the specific text in a versioned legal document). I think for many cases, though, the advantages of a concise URI are, on balance, a higher priority than a less stable targeted destination. isaacl (talk) 01:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Special:WantedCategories has, not for the first time, a redlinked category populated solely by a user's .js settings page. The category is Category:New Pages — but obviously .js pages aren't supposed to be categorized at all, and there'd be no call for "creating" that category to serve any other purpose. So the category needs to come off the page, but I don't have the necessary privileges to edit other people's .js pages, and the user is a brand-new editor who so far has only edited their own .js and .css pages with absolutely no edits to anything else.
This is User:Coderreyansh/vector-2022.js and you should make a request at WP:IAN. If they don't know what to do, they should (i) insert one line at the very top:
This isn't uncommon. Search works by fragmenting itself over multiple nodes (and a result can be on multiple of those nodes), and then pulling in the results of those multiple nodes. It also works on a long delay in terms of updating. These features make it fast (faster then doing the same search on the main database) and it is why search uses a separate database, but they also can cause minor inconsistencies like these for fragments of time. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so when its done, it will be like: every page that has this template which include this navbox get automatically added to that category. it would be nice if the category entering option was as in "asbox" so we can enter respective category to respective navboxs in templates. or is there and easy way to do this without editing the modules? VihirLak007hmu!/duh.22:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
inside the english wikipedia we are able to use several other types of fonts for userpage editings. in the si:wikipedia.org(sinhala wikipedia project) we only have one default font. is there someone who can make it so we can use other few famous free licensed sinhala fonts inside sinhala wikipedia?
i did ask the one and only most active admin in that project here, he says he dont have the technical knowledge for this, hence im seeking help here.
The proper way is to ask on phabricator for those fonts to be added to "Universial Language Selector". Also, try to use the gear icon next to the "languages" heading in the left sidebar on old vector. If you are on new vector, then it is under languages next to the page title and then the gear icon. Sometimes people ask for fonts that are present, they might just not be the default font. Snævar (talk) 17:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has been something that has been bugging me for a while. I know that it is possible to match emails with just a bit of regex, namely (.*)?@(.*)?(\ |$), but is escaping with nospam actually reducing spam? My concern is really with OCR because although the literal character @ is escaped, it only takes a bit of OCR, which is at this point much, much better than a human, in order to get all the emails and continue sending that same spam.
I wonder if maybe the best solution for this would be to have another CAPTCHA before a person is able to view an email or all the emails on the page. This is done on YouTube and more. This could be done for all mailto: links, etc. AwesomeAasim18:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is really with OCR because although the literal character @ is escaped, it only takes a bit of OCR
I am not thinking there should be one of those text CAPTCHAs. There are much smarter ones like GeeTest and ReCaptcha and etc. The reason we do not use one of these is that we are really, really concerned about privacy.
The text CAPTCHA was defeated over a decade ago, thanks to OCR. The current trend in CAPTCHAs I am seeing are those where one clicks on sliders. We unfortunately will have to collect more data to tell if someone isn't a human.
For example, YouTube's CAPTCHA to view a business email address on a channel is the standard "I'm not a robot" CAPTCHA.
If we do not want to go the CAPTCHA rabbit hole, we can rate limit. Rate limiting effectively stops spam, and we can go a step further by preventing people from viewing email addresses when using an open proxy or Tor. AwesomeAasim21:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It probably works at least some of the time. I doubt that it's cost-effective to even parse HTML correctly to harvest email addresses, much less render the whole page and run OCR on it. Here's an article by someone who tried a few simple techniques and found that some of them indeed work: https://spencermortensen.com/articles/email-obfuscation/ (although he didn't try the specific thing this template does). It'd be easy enough to test it yourself, if you don't mind waiting a few months for results: just create two unique email addresses and post them somewhere, one with this template's obfuscation, one without; then wait for the spam to arrive (or not). Matma Rextalk19:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing that could be tried is replacing each of the characters with their Unicode/ASCII values. It probably would make it even more confusing, while still allowing linked email addresses and the like. AwesomeAasim20:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An email link needs the literal email to be present in the link, so it can be passed to the email client. It can be obscured in the HTML source by rendering it with Javascript, but it's still going to be in the resulting page, and with the widespread prevelance of dynamic web pages nowadays, it's common for web crawlers to process retrieved pages after running any Javascript code on them. isaacl (talk) 22:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for OCR, there is a way to run browsers in headless mode; in other words, render the page without showing anything to the user. There are utilities that also can take scrolling screenshots of pages. With OCR so ubiquitous I doubt it wouldn't be hard to set up something that reads webpages like that. AwesomeAasim20:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you're referring to headless browsers? Anyone harvesting email links isn't likely to be using a browser per se. (What might help deter some harvesters is including some obscured text on every page that is designed to produce a huge amount of back-tracking in typical email regexes, and perhaps causing memory overflow... except that it would confound uses by good-faith users, too.) Implementing an effective CAPTCHA system that is accessible and preserves user privacy is a challenge that the WMF has not resolved for many years now (see Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 56 § Captchas for some discussion). isaacl (talk) 21:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it something that the WMF alone could solve? We can just have a CAPTCHA system that is FOSS and that can be hosted on Wikimedia be done with it. Or choose one of the proprietary options that may or may not be the best (like GeeTest or reCAPTCHA or uCAPTCHA or etc.), although they technically collect more data, and be done. Maxmind (which is being used for IP information) is proprietary, as are all the other WHOIS sites. Don't those sites and "whatsmybrowser" and etc. collect browsing data? Even Wikipedia has some tracking used by the WMF.
The fundamental problem with data and privacy is a CAPTCHA has two opposing forces: On one side you need to collect as much data as possible to assess whether one is a human or not. On the other side you do not want to store that data indefinitely. There is not a good easy way to balance this. AwesomeAasim23:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a good free, open source implementation in mind, please do go to the appropriate Phabricator ticket mentioned in the other thread and let the WMF know about it. Yes, the tension between keeping personal data private and using it as an identity check is why expanding the use of CAPTCHA may not be the best approach. isaacl (talk) 23:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remember of course the principle that spam only works on the gullible, and those using techniques to hide their email address from spammers are likely to be the least gullible, so there's is surprisingly little incentive to circumvent such techniques. * Pppery *it has begun...23:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does the "gullible" include "those who naively think replacing characters with images to try to deter spam"?
BTW I actually think that a lot of the spammers have moved onto something else like impersonating Amazon or Google or Microsoft or whatever to do a phishing attack. I think they get these emails from actual data breaches, not just from random parts of the web. For phone numbers those are consecutive, so it isn't too hard to send spam via text. Nonetheless, we can all fall for phishing attacks. Where they somehow get email addresses is anyone's guess. AwesomeAasim23:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spammers don't generally use OCR because it adds processing time and cost. They get plenty of addresses to spam with simple web crawling. Captcha systems are either not accessible (for the blind for example), or they contribute to commercial AI-training (reCAPTCHA, others) that a free encyclopedia should not be involved with. And spammers have no problem getting captcha solutions. Many 'free' sites that show a captcha are really forwarding queries for a spammer who will use the solution on their real target. MrOllie (talk) 23:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Images looping
When I'm viewing images with the mediaviewer in any article, I often navigate to the next image using the arrows. And when I get to the end, there are no more arrows. This makes sense. But for the past few days, the images have been looping, which is especially confusing when there's only one image. How can this be fixed? Thanks, Cremastra — talk — c19:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way to disable it for myself? I find it somewhat annoying to be flicking through a picture gallery and thinking there's more and then ending up back at the start. It's confusing and disorienting, as was pointed out on the phab ticket. Cremastra — talk — c21:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On some websites with photo loops, it shows "1 of 6", etc. somewhere on the screen (top right on IMDb), so you know how far through you are, and if you have cycled to the start. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jdlrobson has replied on the ticket that they intend to add such numbering at the top right and will add CSS classes so users can disable the behaviour. — Jts1882 | talk07:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Middot
OK, this is something that may be an issue that needs looking into (probably not by me) or it may not be important.
When I look at the source code of, for example Talk:Interpunct, using Chrome, and try to validate it at Free Formatter it finds invalid characters such as b7 (interpunct) - despite the fact that HTML clearly says <meta charset="UTF-8">. It could of course be Chrome's fault or Windows not letting me cut and paste UTF8, but both seem unlikely. Are we putting out illegal UTF8? All the best: RichFarmbrough23:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]
H<span style="font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: lowercase;">ELLO</span>. renders as HELLO.
H<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant-caps: all-small-caps;">ELLO</span>. renders as HELLO.
In the second version, which is used in {{LORD}} (which renders as LORD), Safari 17.6 on MacOS creates extraneous whitespace after the end of the word. The first version is fine. Is there a good reason not to switch to the first one in templates like {{LORD}} and {{Kangxi radical}}? —Kusma (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what is going on. I've only noticed this since yesterday (Oct 18). I have installed User:Anomie/linkclassifier from long time back. The code I use is updated to place the link in the sidebar/toolbox. When I click that link on any page, it appears to force the page to reload and does not highlight any of the links as it used to. I've tried using the current instructions for loading, but with no difference. I use Vector 2022 skin and I also checked in monobook; the reload still happens there, although it looks like at least some of the links get highlighted. Any help would be appreciated. older ≠ wiser15:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The manual says it's the last time the user logged in. That's private data. Fields like this are redacted from the Toolforge replicas, so they appear null. – SD0001 (talk) 22:57, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that makes sense. Is there a list somewhere of redacted fields? It would be really nice if was visible in the "Database tables" menu of Quarry :-) RoySmith(talk)23:01, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith Here's the code that controls what gets copied to the toolforge replicas:
user: source: user view: > select user_id, user_name, user_real_name, NULL as user_password, NULL as user_newpassword, NULL as user_email, NULL as user_options, NULL as user_touched, NULL as user_token, NULL as user_email_authenticated, NULL as user_email_token, NULL as user_email_token_expires, user_registration, NULL as user_newpass_time, user_editcount, NULL as user_password_expires
If I'm understanding mw:Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions correctly, it's an optional field for users to configure (and one that seems to be disabled on English Wikipedia), to be displayed in place of their user name, so by design it's intended to be known openly (and could be just another alias). isaacl (talk) 01:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not possible to set user_real_name on Wikimedia wikis, so there is no need to redact it. It is disabled as to not encourage people to disclose more information than needed. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 02:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
map embedded with maplink-road doesn't show fill colors even tho expanded map does
The map was successfully embedded, however, the "fill" color (eg. data.features.0.properties.fill) is being ignored. At least in the embedded version. When I click on the map in the article the expanded map shows the filled color. So why doesn't the embedded map show the "fill" color and what can I do to fix that? TerraFrost (talk) 22:43, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a global way to display a logo based on Wikidata information? Should there be? Can it be made dark mode aware?
Sorry if this sounds like a strange or even stupid question, but please read to the end if it doesn't make sense, I promise you it does.
I can access Wikidata via e.g. {{Infobox company| homepage = {{Official URL}}}}. This is nice and it saves time.
There doesn't appear to be a way to access Wikidata's logo image (P154) property[α] in an Infobox template in a similar named fashion.
I know {{Infobox company}} will "fall back" to P154 if it's defined
Other infoboxes like {{infobox hospital}} don't seem to be able to do the same thing.
I might be a dummy that just hasn't found that yet, but I don't think I've seen any examples in the wild like I have for {{Official URL}}
If there is and I just haven't been able to find it, is Wikipedia's dark mode smart enough to check for the for color scheme (P8798) property?
The only two values are dark-on-light color scheme and light-on-dark color scheme
i.e. P8798 is basically designed for this already
Being able to pull something like {{logo image}} without needing each infobox to implement it directly might be useful, and having it adapt to users' dark mode preferences would be pretty cool. I'm not entirely sure if there's even a way for MediaWiki to "check" if a user is using Dark Mode and "reply" with some kind of variable that could be used here.
Reading about Wikifunctions and Abstract Wikipedia got me thinking about far simpler things that might already be common elsewhere online but not implemented here yet. Checking if a user's browser reports "preferring dark mode" is becoming more ubiquitous.
Just to make sure I wasn't being extra stupid,[β] I tested with Vector (2022), and it looks like some pages try and account for it. For example, Apple Inc.'s logo is black, so an editor used [[File:Apple logo black.svg|frameless|upright=0.4|class=skin-invert]] in their infobox - emphasis on class=skin-invert - but that really only works with Vector (2022)'s dark mode. Dark Reader doesn't pick up on it, and I imagine that one Chromium about:flags option to force dark mode everywhere doesn't either.
Footnotes
^As in quickly via a named template like {{Official URL}}.
The following code isn't exactly easy for a layman to parse: {{#invoke:InfoboxImage |InfoboxImage |image={{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{embed}}}}} | yes | {{{logo|{{{company_logo|}}}}}} |{{#invoke:WikidataIB |getValue |rank=best |P154 |name=logo |qid={{{qid|}}} |fetchwikidata={{{fetchwikidata|ALL}}} |suppressfields={{{suppressfields|}}} |onlysourced=no |noicon=yes |maxvals=1 |{{{logo|{{{company_logo|}}}}}} }} }} |size={{{logo_size|}}} |sizedefault=frameless |upright={{{logo_upright|1}}} |alt={{{logo_alt|{{{alt|}}}}}} }}
and that code is specific to (and pasted directly from){{infobox company}}
^Wikipedia:Things that should not be surprisingMiscellaneous - 2. The MediaWiki software can be fucking weird sometimes. 8. Wikipedia exists and is currently working (otherwise how are you here?) And finally - 1. A page documenting obvious facts exists somewhere. 2. People will actually look up and read a page documenting obvious facts, just like you are right now.
I am writing articles on astronomical subjects on Danish Wikipedia and am missing the possibility of inserting proper symbols representing degrees (°), arc minutes (′) and arc seconds (″) inside <nowiki><math></math></nowiki> (outside is no problem as you can see).
Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.
Weekly highlight
The Mobile Apps team has released an update to the iOS app's navigation, and it is now available in the latest App store version. The team added a new Profile menu that allows for easy access to editor features like Notifications and Watchlist from the Article view, and brings the "Donate" button into a more accessible place for users who are reading an article. This is the first phase of a larger planned navigation refresh to help the iOS app transition from a primarily reader-focused app, to an app that fully supports reading and editing. The Wikimedia Foundation has added more editing features and support for on-wiki communication based on volunteer requests in recent years.
iOS Wikipedia App's profile menu and contents
Updates for editors
Wikipedia readers can now download a browser extension to experiment with some early ideas on potential features that recommend articles for further reading, automatically summarize articles, and improve search functionality. For more details and to stay updated, check out the Web team's Content Discovery Experiments page and subscribe to their newsletter.
Later this month, logged-out editors of these 12 wikis will start to have temporary accounts created. The list may slightly change - some wikis may be removed but none will be added. Temporary account is a new type of user account. It enhances the logged-out editors' privacy and makes it easier for community members to communicate with them. If you maintain any tools, bots, or gadgets on these 12 wikis, and your software is using data about IP addresses or is available for logged-out users, please check if it needs to be updated to work with temporary accounts. Guidance on how to update the code is available. Read more about the deployment plan across all wikis.
It is now possible to create functions on Wikifunctions using Wikidata lexemes, through the new Wikidata lexeme type launched last week. When you go to one of these functions, the user interface provides a lexeme selector that helps you pick a lexeme from Wikidata that matches the word you type. After hitting run, your selected lexeme is retrieved from Wikidata, transformed into a Wikidata lexeme type, and passed into the selected function. Read more about this in the latest Wikifunctions newsletter.
Updates for technical contributors
Users of the Wikimedia sites can now format dates more easily in different languages with the new {{#timef:…}} parser function. For example, {{#timef:now|date|en}} will show as "21 October 2024". Previously, {{#time:…}} could be used to format dates, but this required knowledge of the order of the time and date components and their intervening punctuation. #timef (or #timefl for local time) provides access to the standard date formats that MediaWiki uses in its user interface. This may help to simplify some templates on multi-lingual wikis like Commons and Meta. [39][40]
Commons and Meta users can now efficiently retrieve the user's language using {{USERLANGUAGE}} instead of using {{int:lang}}. [41]
The Product and Tech Advisory Council (PTAC) now has its pilot members with representation across Africa, Asia, Europe, North America and South America. They will work to address the Movement Strategy's Technology Council initiative of having a co-defined and more resilient technological platform. [42]
In depth
The latest quarterly Growth newsletter is available. It includes: an upcoming Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module, new Community Configuration options, and details on new projects.
The Wikimedia Foundation is now an official partner of the CVE program, which is an international effort to catalog publicly disclosed cybersecurity vulnerabilities. This partnership will allow the Security Team to instantly publish common vulnerabilities and exposures (CVE) records that are affecting MediaWiki core, extensions, and skins, along with any other code the Foundation is a steward of.
The Community Wishlist is now testing machine translations for Wishlist content. Volunteers can now read machine-translated versions of wishes and dive into discussions even before translators arrive to translate content.
20–22 December 2024 - Indic Wikimedia Hackathon Bhubaneswar 2024 in Odisha, India. A hackathon for community members, including developers, designers and content editors, to build technical solutions that improve contributors' experiences.
So... why is this page suddenly squeezed into the header?
Checked previous revisions and it happens there too. Also can't click reply, the script gets confused. This is not happening with any of the other village pumps, is it something from the updates above(tech news)?
In case you don't see it, for me the div with id "villagepumpfaq", which is added manually in this page, is consuming the entire page. – 2804:F1...96:C2CF (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How to temporarily turn off a style?
At IUCN Red List endangered species (Animalia), most of the list text is in italics using {{columns-list|style=font-style:italic; as they are scientific names, but some text should not be, "(Kootenai River subpopulation)" for example. How do I change that back to roman text without messing up the existing pattern? Thank you. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 23:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current system is very convoluted. Being on a fourth level subpage on a different wiki with 90% of the comments not being signed, and using an emoji system for distinguishing resolved/unresolved issues makes it a nightmare for a) finding issues, b) responding, and c) asking for more details. It would be easier to have a page like Wikipedia:Dark mode reports so more editors could help fix issues. We should import the page here and archive the MediaWiki wiki page. Thoughts? @SCP-2000, FeRDNYC, and I Am Andumé: as editors involved there on fixing issues (if I've missed someone feel free to ping them). —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 14:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These may be localized by changing these interface messages. However, if we don't have it reported to the page it is being reported to on mediawikiwiki, we should not expect that the software developers and project team will monitor the reports. — xaosfluxTalk23:28, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^ This. Think about whether it's more important to you to have the page structured your way, or more important to have the dev team look at the feedback. Tradeoffs are a fact of life. It's IMO likely that they'd appreciate some improvements to the format, but it's also possible that this is what works best for them (e.g., perhaps omitting sigs solves them a privacy hassle if they import the feedback to a different system? I doubt it, but Chesterton's fence suggests that we shouldn't assume that there is no reason for the unusual format). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:48, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Xaosflux: I don't think the software team has looked at any of the reports in a while anyway. It looks to be mostly left up to the community. They did some at the start of the dark mode beta, but as the most important features were taken care of, the more minor templates and pages were left to the community. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 09:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the reports from all the wikis should end up in one centralised place so the developers only have to look at one wiki, but I'm not so sure about the status icons. Developers have to be able to read English to make sense of the reports, so can't their status be in English too? Phil Bridger (talk) 11:07, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dark mode isn't just for English Wikipedia, so archiving the page on the Mediawiki wiki and making the communities of all other wikis come to English Wikipedia to make reports isn't ideal. isaacl (talk) 01:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Isaacl if we changed the report link here, it would only be for users of enwiki - anyone on the hundreds of other projects would still go to mediawikiwiki unless their project also overrode the default. — xaosfluxTalk02:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I do agree with the others who have expressed a preference for a centralized location for error reporting. isaacl (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reminded of the early visual editor rollout where there were some editors (including at least one WMF employee) spent some considerable time and effort translating user reports left on a page on en.wp into phabricator tickets, often after more testing to verify reports and give details more useful to developers. I'm not involved in the dark mode at all (and I don't personally use it) but if there are volunteers to do something similar then giving people the option of reporting locally with those reports being copied over might work. Thryduulf (talk) 17:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a fundamentally different situation in that, while any Visual Editor issues would generally manifest everywhere, no matter which installation reported the problem, with dark-mode issues the overwhelming majority of cases are addressed by making local content changes (to a specific article or template). A vanishingly small percentage of the reported problems are in any way generalizable beyond the immediate context of the initial report. (So, I agree, it's a bit odd to exfiltrate the reports to a different wiki in the first place; issues with local content — which these are — need to be, and ultimately will end up being, handled locally.) FeRDNYC (talk) 20:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey everyone - wanted to a give a quick reply from the team's perspective. In short - this is totally up to whatever the community finds easier/more comfortable. We had initially set up the system to be more centralized as we did not want to presume which local page each wiki would find more comfortable. That said, we have no concerns with wikis making the change to a local page if preferred, and a few wikis have so far chosen to do this with good results. Some more information on how to do this is available at the top of our general reporting page. Hope this is helpful! OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Following the response from WMF, I think it's a good idea for a survey to check if we want to proceed further.
@Xaosflux, FeRDNYC, SCP-2000, Isaacl, Phil Bridger, WhatamIdoing, and Thryduulf: and any other people, please state your position briefly:
Support as proposer: Most of the people actually tackling dark mode issues aren't WMF developers now, but volunteers. Dark mode issues are a local issue per FeRDNYC and therefore should be handled locally on this wiki for best results. We can also change the system to something better in the process (including signatures, using archive templates instead of emojis, etc.). —Matrix(!)ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 16:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery: It is broken though - the page has no archiving, there are no signatures so replying is slow, the current emoji system for responding to issues is substandard, and it's hidden in an obscure location so no one can find it to help fix issues. Also, since there are no signatures, it's a nightmare chasing people to get further details of issues. What part of that isn't broken? —Matrix(!)ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 11:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because issues are getting fixed, doesn't mean it's happening efficiently. The current system is very inefficient, even if issues are getting fixed. It is still creating lots of friction preventing new users from fixing issues. —Matrix(!)ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 18:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Implementation
Okay, the consensus is the people fixing dark mode issues can decide the location, and FeRDNYC has also expressed the current issues with the current system. Dark mode issues are ultimately usually a local problem, and WMF has also said this is technically possible. We would need to do a few things:
Import the MediaWiki page to enwiki with the options "Copy all the revisions for this page" and "Assign edits to local users where the named user exists locally" (this is important for archiving later).
I'm fine doing the transwiki import for this when ready, but I'm not seeing a consensus in the discussion above yet. The "assign local" part is not needed; I doubt anyone at mwwiki will care about that page, we're not going to delete anything there but can just slap a cross-wiki redirect on it. So what next? Someone that hasn't !voted on this above should eventually close this discussion with a result. For the xmlimport part, feel free to ping me at that time. — xaosfluxTalk11:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal for trial: assignment to a small random group of editors to elevated permissions for a fixed short term by sortition.
Test 1: Selected extended-confirmed editors, who have edited in the past 100 days, get AfC and/or new page reviewer, which have backlogs. They still have to read the instructions. (PCR is too weak for a practical experiment imo.)
Test 2: Selected auto/confirmed editors, who edited recently, get bumped into extended-confirmed.
Rules: Any admin can strike for any behavior at any time; one strike and you're out; no extension of term; no exceptions. Also: you cannot refuse permissions, and your editing or sanction history (but not block history) has no bearing on whether you get or don't get permissions. Every admin and editor with equal permissions capable of oversight will have a readily-accessible list of test editors. (It's not difficult to deduce otherwise.)
Numbers: As a conservative estimate for a first experiment, maybe 200 editors on both tests simultaneously for 6 months, depending on the activity level of those in the sample -- if 20 editors substantially increase their activity in response, that's measurable and manageable.
The purpose is to increase engagement by somewhat active editors across the spectrum, and perhaps even motivate requests for permanent permissions and adminship down the line. In that spirit, if a test editor loses permissions in the one-strike rule, it should have minimal or zero bearing on requesting permissions in future. This is a learning and motivational experience. That permissions here are ultimately reversible and have oversight means that, on balance, if an ill-behaved editor now ends up being able to credibly seek permissions in future, this model, should it be causative, was indeed a success.
A high barrier to entry of WP adminship and some permissions, combined with thanklessness of tasks and relatively low social prestige, means that we are probably below rate-of-replacement on adminship, and there are backlogs for areas needing permissions. Sortition, if it results in participation, relieves this burden. It also increases representative fairness and ideological diversity to those who would handle the content and administrative backlogs. (Afaik this is a WP-unique issue.) In Polish Wikipedia the exclusionary effect on new candidates of acquaintancy among admins was studied (Spychała et al 2014 "Does the Administrator Community ... Acquaintance Relation?"); so if a similar phenomenon exists in all permissions then sortition would help disrupt it.
On the effects of granting priveliges/power: In (Sassenberg et al 2014 "Power corrupts: revisited"), the relationship of elevated power and a sense of communal responsibility vs individual corruption (whether one is elevated as opposed to the other) is complex with contradictory results in the literature. In general, if people are in a socially-oriented environment and goals, which I'd suggest epitomizes WP editing, then power would orient them toward the former. However, the review also suggests that the perception of power as an increase opportunity or promtion, rather than just increased responsibility, is a big part of the increased motivational effects, which would suggest that since sortition may lower the prestige of elevated priveliges, it would have a negative effect on motivation; but this seems again highly social-context- and goal-dependent in the literature.
I have trouble imagining us (i.e., those of us who have achieved a measure of power and control in the current system) being willing to give up control over permissions, no matter how slight this might be.
That said, I think that both Test 1 and Test 2 would be worthwhile experiments, and I specifically suggest considering selecting candidates for Test 2 from among those who are nearly EXTCONF anyway (e.g., they have the time but they're short 100–200 edits, or they have the edits, but they're short 1–2 months).
Even if there's an element of power and status to them, the vast majority of what people with advanced permissions do is just drudgery. It seems really unlikely to me that somebody randomly assigned NPP or even admin is actually going to want to use them. And one of the main functions of the perm system is to reduce the attack surface these rights offer by only giving them to people motivated enough to ask for it.
Also, yes AfC and NPP are backlogged, but 'reviewing the reviewers' is also work and there are very few admins doing it. This would massively increase that workload - who's going to pick up the slack? – Joe (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine that an editor who receives a note saying something like "You've been given this permission temporarily. Please read up and use it if you want" might use it a few times, at least to try it out. If they have a positive experience, they might request to the perm later through the usual channels.
Giving a perm only to those motivated enough to ask means that a higher percentage of the requesters is improperly motivated. Undeclared paid editors will be more motivated to ask for the permission than an ordinary volunteer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am quite a fan of sortition for filling real-world positions, both where it is used in many countries (mainly for selecting juries) and for some other positions. A few thoughts on its applicability to Wikipedia:
I doubt that many people would devote much time to the task, because they have to earn a living, and paying the people selected would cause many other issues.
Many people would try out their new permissions, but most would drop out.
There need to be clear success/failure criteria. Too many things are tried here, then clearly fail, but continue to be used because of the sunken cost fallacy (I know this is controversial, but I would class draft space as being one of these).
Clear criteria are highly desirable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that a single metric works (e.g., we don't want to lose these randomly selected editors and we don't want WP:UGLY articles in the mainspace), and it's entirely possible that doing the jobs correctly would result in the selected editors quitting. For example:
Existing AFC promotions have a very low rate of deletion at AFD. (I believe that the normal rate is about 75%.) Given that they're supposed to promote articles that are likely (i.e., 51%, not 90%) to survive AFD, this means that they are underpromoting and overrestricting.
If the new AFC people collectively promote articles that get deleted only 40% of the time, that's a sign that they're doing it correctly (still underpromoting, actually), even though theirs are getting deleted more often than older AFC folks. Thie AFD metric would show success.
But: if each AFD, or the run up to those AFDs, comes with recriminations and complaints about how they're being too "lenient", then the yelled-at editors might quit. The editor-retention metric would show failure.
If the new AFC people collectively promote articles that get deleted only 40% of the time, that's a sign that they're doing it correctly (still underpromoting, actually)Not necessarily. If they promote articles with a chance to survive AfD above 50%, and we assume they are uniformly distributed in probability, the average promoted article would have 75% of chance to survive AfD, or in other words get deleted 25% of the time. If they get deleted 40% of the time, there might be a level of overpromotion going on. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 16:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(I love people who can math.)
I think it depends on your underlying assumptions about the distribution. If you have 10 articles, each with a 51% chance of surviving AFD, and you promote them all, and all 10 get sent to AFD, then you'd expect five to get deleted – and they were all still correct promotions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That definitely depends on our hypotheses about the distribution, indeed. If the 10 articles range from 51%, 56%, ... up to 96%, then you'd have a lower expectation of deleted articles (2.65 if I mathed correctly). But there's also a hidden assumption in here, in that an article with 96% chances of surviving an AfD will probably not be sent there to begin with, meaning the deletion rate of articles being sent at AfD will naturally be higher than the total deletion rate.All in all, it would be interesting to have more statistics about both the deletion chance of AfC articles at AfD, and how much AfC articles are underrepresented at AfD to begin with. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deletion stats are difficult to measure retrospectively. It might be something that we need to study prospectively. There's also the complication of experience: people submitting articles through AFC are not going to have the same deletion rate as people like you and me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also while it's tempting to consider, if this experiment is successful, a radical future proposed sortition of admins, akin to the admin-for-a-day proposed in 2012, but per WMF this is not legally doable, the prohibitive priveliges being rollback and deleted material. That doesn't necessarily have to prevent it; the WMF doesn't set an actual bar for the community review. Therefore, we could have a much lower-pressure, lower-stakes community review of every editor who meets a certain threshold of edits and age to determine eligibility for one day obtaining those rights via sortation, with the sole focus being "is this person likely to abuse rollback or access to deleted material?" (which would almost always lean towards acceptance, since it is automatic, done for everyone, and doesn't directly grant adminship.) Only arguments and rationales specifically related to that question would be allowed and considered by closers when closing such discussions, not general discussions of whether they'd make a good admin in other ways; and they wouldn't require bcrat closures or anything. This would then allow admin status to be granted to those editors via sortition because they'd previously passed a community review on the aspects the WMF cares about. --Aquillion (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the prohibitive priveliges being rollback and. Rollback doesn't seem very dangerous. I doubt wmf would put their foot down about handing out that one too easily. Agree that wmf would object to handing out view deleted though for legal reasons. This has been well discussed before. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the WMF cares about Wikipedia:Rollback (which doesn't even get used much, because Twinkle and other scripts can mimic the same effect). The legal problem is viewdeleted. They have consistently said that they want proof that the community trusts the people who have that particular right (e.g., we trust them not to restore copyvios or re-post uploaded revenge porn to another site). The process of community vetting can change, but there must be a community vetting process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(e.g., we trust them not to restore copyvios or re-post uploaded revenge porn to another site). I've never heard that. WMF's stated reason for viewdeleted being sensitive is that they want to be able to say in court that when something is deleted, it is well and truly deleted, and that only vetted individuals will have access to it, rather than it being easily accessible. The vibe I'm getting is to make sure BLP, libel and defamation, etc. stays deleted and that they can argue it is truly deleted in court. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If someone is restoring the inappropriate here or posting it on other websites, then that's not "staying deleted", and nobody could argue that it is, even around the dinner table. We need to be able to trust that admins won't do that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, though, my point is that we can have a more lightweight vetting process focused specifically and exclusively on whether someone is likely to abuse the specific tools the WMF is worried about. Whenever alternative approaches to adminship come up, people bring up that WMF concern, and it's easily addressed. The WMF isn't worried about people abusing blocks, or unblocks, or weighing in at WP:AE, or AE enforcement actions; and the (perceived, at least) high risk associated with those things under the current system is what actually makes people reluctant to promote admins and which therefore makes RFAs hard. This is also self-perpetuating in that the fewer admins there are the more impact each one has, raising the stakes of RFA in a way that risks breaking it. The community and the WMF are worried about different things. --Aquillion (talk) 22:34, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This is a solvable problem. Also, it doesn't have to be solved in the first iteration. We could test the system on a couple of other userrights, and circle back to test some others later. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WMF doesn't care about rollback. We could even auto-promote users to some "been around a while" group that includes all of Autopatrolled, New page reviewer, Page mover, Pending changes reviewer, Rollback and they wouldn't care. — xaosfluxTalk13:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re-instating this proposal, I want to make the icons look more clear and sleek; I will eventually add on more to the icons (such as good articles, audio articles, etc.) I also want to add region-based letter shackles, so for example 拡 (拡張, Kakuchō) would be the Japanese extended-protection icon, same with 満 (満杯, Manpai) for full-protection.
Agree with others that these new icons look dated. However, if we are discussing changes to lock icons, then I must say the the purple for upload protected is incongruously gaudy. Cremastra — talk — c20:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty strong oppose trying to run a geolocation script on every load to try to make dynamic labels here. If anything (which I also don't like) labels should follow user interface language. — xaosfluxTalk17:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the differences, I was just suggesting (because I don't really speak any other language you could propose a specific version) Also, I will later add the letters on the shackles.
Oppose making the primary (only) differentiation be color, as that gives out less information then the current scheme and is useless for those without color viewing abilities. — xaosfluxTalk17:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Xaosflux on this one. Furthermore, the two issues of the old icon scheme (color and "realistic" shading that doesn't look great on small icons), which were the reasons for the change to begin with, are present on this one too.Regarding the region-based symbols, it would make more sense to display them based on the language edition, and, since each language edition already sets its own standards for this stuff, there isn't much more we can do. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but only slightly. If you added the letters, it would be better. Also, a solution to your region-basing could be to do a Language-based (like "O" for "Office" would become "S" for "Schoolhouse" in a theoretical "Reversed English") The Master of Hedgehogs(converse)(hedgehogs)14:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:WIKICLICHE we've been asked to not say this quite as much, due to supply chain issues – if we use them too much we could see a huge shortage down the road. But I hope I'm not generating more heat than light with this comment, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Cremastra — talk — c20:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never throw the baby out with the bathwater. This will contaminate your greywater collection system. Like other meats, babies are not compostable, so they should be sorted into the landfill waste stream unless otherwise advised by your municipal waste management authority. Folly Mox (talk) Folly Mox (talk) 20:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pseudo-3D shading looks dated compared to the current flat icons. Most modern design systems (including codex, which is the new design system for Wikimedia wikis) are built around flat icons. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE)18:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just for funStill feel like a step backwards. The current "Good article" icon, on top of having less of a distracting shading and being more readable, is in a consistent style with a lot of our other icons. The current "Featured article" icon, although not consistent with the others, is pretty unique and recognizable in design, while this one looks like a generic star.Just for fun, I did once make a "Good article" star in the style of the FA one – not meant for any official implementation beyond my personal script of course, but it's neat to see how it would look like. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are not visual improvements whatsoever, unfortunately. They are clear regressions in design, and the current icons are fine. Our system is particular to the English Wikipedia, so it's perfectly appropriate for their design to be relative to the English language.Remsense ‥ 论19:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Color me baffled. By starting with Re-instating this proposal, you make me think you want to reinvigorate some failed proposal. But then I follow your link and see that the proposal led to the implementation of new padlock icons, which; I guess, you mean to reverse. I also fail to understand what you mean by region-based letter shackles; do you mean for articles about, e.g., Japan? Or articles viewed by somebody we're supposed to have guessed might be in Japan? Or somebody with the Japanese language listed in a userbox on their User page? It's English Wikipedia, so I can't see the last two being useful options, and the first one will only lead to arguments and confusion and we've got that already. The current icons seem clear enough to me, although I don't know how to measure "sleek", I guess. In summary: baffled. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits)12:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean region-based letter shackles basically like the letters on shackles but different regional translations. (This'll probably not work because of @Chaotic Enby's post.)
So (just to see if I understand it finally), you're proposing on English Wikipedia that Japanese Wikipedia use icons with Japanese symbology, and Spanish Wikipedia use some Spanish-language indicator on the padlock, etc. Yes? — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits)22:30, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! My name is Joe Sutherland and I'm on the Trust and Safety team at the Wikimedia Foundation. In the past, your community has shown interest in holding elections with SecurePoll — perhaps you already have through votewiki. We are now looking into making this available to local communities to run elections themselves. This will require the "electionadmin" right to be enabled on your project, which is a right that allows access to sensitive information.
As such, it is likely that you will need to run a Request for Comment (or similar process) to ascertain consensus for the implementation of this feature. To help guide such a discussion, we've put together a Meta-Wiki page with more information about what enabling the right will mean for your community.
If your community does discuss and decides to move forward with this, T&S would like to support you — please let us know via email ( ca@wikimedia.org ) if and when consensus is reached. Thank you!
Sorry, I wasn't totally clear - this would be for future (admin/ArbCom) elections that the community would like to run. The elections scheduled to start soon will use the existing votewiki system. Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) 19:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This isn't a requirement holding for admin elections, arbcom elections (or any other type of elections) but (if I've understood correctly) it will reduce the amount of support we need from the WMF when we do hold them. I agree completely with Sdkb's last sentence. Thryduulf (talk) 20:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This would help us host local administrator elections and arbitration committee elecitons that aren't so dependent on the limited bandwidth of the stewards (scrutineers) and WMF T&S (for vote.wikimedia.org setup). By the way, are electionadmins basically checkusers within the SecurePoll tool (being able to see IP information for voters)? So we'd need to make sure that folks that receive that permission are a functionary and/or sign an NDA? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Is there a ticket on Phab to separate election checkuser capabilities from election creation/editing capabilities? This might be worth looking into. The person that sets up polls doesn't necessarily need to be the same person that checks all the voters. And it may make sense to have a division here. For example, someone technical can set up SecurePoll, and existing checkusers could do the scrutineering. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did some research and it looks like any admin can create a poll, but only electionadmins (scrutineers) can edit a poll or view checkuser-like data on voters. This split is a bit odd, as I think it'd be better if admins could also edit polls that they were added to when the polls were created, so I've filed phab:T377531 to explore that idea a bit further. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support to help us implement administrator elections in a more practical way for both us and the WMF. However, will electionadmins be a new user group? They seem to combine characteristics of checkusers and bureaucrats, and I'm not sure whether it would work to bundle the right into either by default. On the other hand, Novem Linguae's proposal of splitting the user right could work better, with a technical-minded crat setting up the poll, while checkusers get the scrutineering right. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I'm reading the code right... yes, electionadmin would either need to be a new user group, or the permissions for it (securepoll-create-poll, securepoll-view-voter-pii) added to an existing user group such as the checkusers. The latter might be simpler than creating a whole new appointment process for electionadmins.
At first glance, I don't see a relationship between bureaucrats and electionadmins. Electionadmins can't grant any user groups, unlike bureaucrats. Again, if I'm reading the code right, any admin can create a poll. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the relationship between bureaucrats and electionadmins, it's more to have the same group in charge of regular RfAs and admin elections, and to decouple checkusers from this additional responsibility. But that might be too redundant, and having any technical-minded admin able to do it could be enough, although it would be a major responsibility to give to any admin and might make it more difficult for potential candidates to gain the voters' trust. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 13:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The technical village pump is for questions about how to do X, whereas how to grant the electionadmin right requires a proposal for a policy, so this page is the appropriate place. Since the right provides access to voter information (as per meta:SecurePoll/Local elections § What does the electionadmin right do?), a process is needed to establish who is trusted with this access. The options I can think of are by consensus discussion, by election, or by appointment (which would push the question up one level on how to decide what group does the appointing). Being part of an existing trusted group, such as those with the oversight right or the checkuser right, could be a requirement to become an election admin. isaacl (talk) 23:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might be simplest to grant the permissions securepoll-create-poll and securepoll-view-voter-pii to the checkusers. That way we don't need the overhead of a separate user group or separate appointment process. I think you have to specifically be added to a poll by the poll creator to see its PII, so there shouldn't be any security risk from giving all the checkusers the ability to be added to polls by the poll creator. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This feels like a major oversight. The admin elections are modeled after WP:ACE but apparently nobody thought about the scrutineers that need to be approved and tooled up each year for ACE. I'm presuming this means the elections are on hold until we clear this up? Just Step Sidewaysfrom this world ..... today00:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Locally, we have a few options that we could consider if we decide to do polls. First, we don't HAVE to encrypt the database, it doesn't make the votes readily available - but a developer could access them, so that is something to consider (also means not having to deal with key escrow to finalize the election). Additionaly, we don't have to let SP collect private info. We would still have the usernames - it would just prevent using the checkuser info on the securepoll votes. These are all just things to consider if we set up polls - point is that there are options. — xaosfluxTalk13:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Local communities should have the autonomy to conduct elections when they see fit, and not be so dependent on a certain WMF team that has a tight calendar. Also, the inability to conduct separate elections on multiple sites at the same time is a big limitation of the current system that would be addressed by this. – SD0001 (talk) 08:55, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- Per SD and Xaos above, I think deploying SecurePoll locally so that individual communities can conduct elections in a autonomous and decentralized manner at the tradeoff of some confidentiality is a good idea in general. Sohom (talk) 14:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the spirit essays like WP:WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! and WP:ALPHABETTISPAGHETTI and WP:UPPERCASE, I'm trying to do a lot more lowercase fullnaming when referencing policies like WP:OriginalResearch or wp:competenceisrequired. I've personally found this less likely to be cognitively associated with shouting or lawyering, more self-explanatory without needing a hover, and much easier on the eyes. Hopefully newer editors have felt the same.
Two things I'd like to address:
Not all subpolicies have redirects in both lowercase and camelcase. I just want to make sure they can all be made without controversy.
On the policy pages themselves, the shortcuts to subpolicies are always uppercase. So we have (in RS) both WP:UBO and USEBYOTHERS as shortcuts in the box, but as only UBO is an acronym, why can't we have the second shortcut suggestion be WP:UseByOthers? (Similar across the P&G.) It's just an indicator that other shortcuts besides UPPERCASE exist.
Relatively minor thing that won't change the actual functionality of anything. It just makes the replaces the suggested full-name spelling (not acronyms) of P&G shortcuts from uppercase to camelcase. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To pre-empt the objection that editors should pipe plaintext to P&G as suggested in the essays I linked: I agree, that's great, if editors actually did it with any regularity. For my own part, piping is an extra bit of typing that may not be as clear that I'm referencing P&G in discussion in the first place, which is often important, since I've found people rarely click links anyway. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're likely to get any pushback on point 1. It has long been my practice to refer to such things in whichever case makes most sense in the sentence I am writing (usually lower case or with a capitalised first letter) and, if "show preview" shows it as a red link, create a redirect. I don't think I've ever had anyone revert this. I'll have to think a bit more about point 2 - there's a danger of bloat there. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear on #2: in the box in the P&G that gives the shortcuts in bold blue text: one is an acronym and one is the fullname, so in my linked example, the box says Shortcuts: WP:UBO WP:USEBYOTHERS. I suggest replacing the fullname shortcut in the P&G from allcaps to camelcase, so the box now says Shortcuts: WP:UBO WP:UseByOthers. I'm not sure where you're seeing bloat, as not a single byte is being added or subtracted, and functionally nothing is changed. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see one possible point of contention: in many skins including legacy vector, the search includes all redirects, and some might be annoyed to see a ton of redirects preemptively clog up the suggestions when they want to find something else after typing the first word. Personally, I like point 2-style redirects much better. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy Vector search is case-sensitive? So if I start searching "mrna", it brings up a list including "Mrna", "mRna", "mRNA", all of which link to the same thing? If that's the case, and someone is still using such software, then the adding or removing of case-sensitive redirects has surely long since stopped being a cause of heartache for that person. SamuelRiv (talk) 07:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a great many ways of searching Wikipedia, some of which are case-insensitive and display a list of possible results as you type. This includes the internal search engine, which is independent of which skin you use (you see the same results in vector, vector legacy, monobook, etc). Thryduulf (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CamelCase is a tiny bit less effort to type and still indicates that the link is a shortcut. I think the reason everything caps is precisely to differentiate them as redirects, and some of that differentiation should be preserved. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I don't feel that the visible link text should be differentiated as redirects. This primarily serves to codify a term (in allcaps or camel case) as jargon. There are times when this can lead to greater concision, but most of the time the gain is small, with a cost of greater confusion for those who don't already know the title of the destination and the corresponding text. For example, often non-neutral points of view get labelled as being WP:NPOV. I appreciate the point of view that learning a community's jargon is part of joining that community. I feel, though, that English Wikipedia has plenty of jargon already without every shortcut being used as jargon. isaacl (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I'd advocate camelcase as the second suggested redirect (in the little redirects box in the P&G sections), as opposed to spaced-out prose versions (which I'd also like to see used more by editors), is that camelcase is also at least a little suggestive that there is an acronym people use, or i.e. that a newbie following a discussion might more readily deduce 'WP:UseByOthers ↔ WP:UBO'. If everyone here would prefer listing 'WP:Use by others', that's fine by me; one could also put three shortcuts instead of just the two: 'WP:UBO WP:UseByOthers WP:Use by others'. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SamuelRiv, if you'd like this to be a bit easier, then try switching from 'Source' to 'Visual' in the Reply tool for a few days.
Use its Link tool for adding links. In the visual mode, just type [[ and it'll notice that you want to make a link and open the tool for you (alternatively, click the button in the toolbar or use the keyboard shortcut (=⌘K on a Mac). Type the shortcut (e.g., WP:CORP) into the link search box, and it will offer you a link to the full title (e.g., Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). For individual sections, open the page in a tab, and paste the whole URL into your comment. For example, I opened WP:SIRS in another tab, and pasting the whole URL gives me a nicely formatted link to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#How to apply the criteria.
Late response, but this is awkward in discussions. In practice, editors have wanted to have a shorthand way to both type out the policy they are referencing and also to read-and-refer to it. The problem is that anyone who hasn't been on discussion pages for years has no idea where to even begin understanding what they mean, so camelcase at least is a middle ground that mitigates two issues: shout-i-ness and un-parse-ability of alphabettispaghetti. The replacement in the side boxes is a completely passive notification to editors that camelcase is simply another option for typing the thing they always type, even though typing the whole policy out, or linking it into prose, would of course (usually) be preferable. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Draftification has long been criticized as a backdoor to deletion. In New Pages Patrol (NPP), it is common to move new articles that are not ready for mainspace to draftspace. This way, articles that could potentially be suitable for Wikipedia, but are not yet, are preserved. The article creator then gets a chance to improve their article without NPPers breathing down their necks or having it taken to Articles for Deletion. If anyone, including the article creator, objects to draftification, the article should be moved back to mainspace (draftification should be reversed). This is explained by DRAFTNO #6 and #7. No reason is required for the objection.
Problem: However, we also have a rule that drafts that haven't been edited for six months get automatically deleted, under Criterion for Speedy Deletion G13. So, well-meaning New Page Patrollers will unilaterally draftify new articles that are not yet ready for the encyclopedia. The new editors who created the article may disagree with the move, without knowing that they can object. The new users can get discouraged and leave Wikipedia altogether, and after six months the draft is deleted under CSD G13. As this process happens without community discussions, it results in draftification being called a "backdoor to deletion".
Solution: This problem can be solved without changing policy or current practice. We just need to make it very obvious to new users that they can object to draftification. We can also make it easy to reverse the draftication (assuming the new user is autoconfirmed). I suggest we do this by adding a template to all draftified articles. The template would include a big blue button, similar to the "Submit the draft for review!" button at Template:AfC submission/draft, which says "Object to this move". Clicking this button either: 1. Leaves a message on the talk page of the editor who draftified, notifying them that there has been an objection to the move and requesting that it be immediately reversed. 2. Moves the page back to mainspace automatically, or if the editor's account is unable to perform this task, creates an entry at Requested moves/Technical moves to that effect. The latter is better, but also more technically complex. Adding a similar button to Template:Uw-articletodraft, the warning typically given upon draftification, would also be helpful.
Implementation: Once the new template is ready, it can be added to MPGuy's MoveToDraft userscript, which is the most common way for NPPers to draftify articles. It should be placed above the AfC template on all draftified articles.
I would appreciate comments from technically skilled editors, who could create this template (or tell me that it's impossible), from NPPers who draftify articles, and from uninvolved editors who have opinions on the draftification process. Toadspike[Talk]10:37, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This idea isn't really my own, it was obviously sparked by the most recent RfA. A similar idea was previously discussed here, but that discussion proposed a requirement that all editors have to follow (policy), not a technical solution, and turned into a trainwreck. To prevent something similar, I ask all participants to please focus on improving the current situation instead of debating the morality of draftification as a whole. Toadspike[Talk]11:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notifying the users who commented most directly on this topic at the RfA: @Alalch E.@User:Onel5969@User:Hobit@User:Fangz@User:Nsk92. I have also notified the NPP Talk page and posted a message on Discord. I am not sure how to notifying all participants of the previous discussion (aside from doing it manually) and I am not sure that is productive considering how many people were involved and how offtopic it got, so I won't do that for now. Toadspike[Talk]11:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The draftification message could be tweaked, but a big button to reverse the move will lead to more AfDs, higher strain on NPP, more BITEY behaviour, and worse editor retention. Draft space is incredibly valuable, and people have some incredibly warped views about the space. If we did something like this then we'd end up chasing away new editors because learning how to make your article meet our complicated guidelines in under 7 days (AfD tag) is not easy for a lot of folks. Draft space gives them the opportunity to work on the content, to receive advise, and to make articles that will actually survive at AfD and allow them to stick around. Really we need to draftify more, and I've taken it upon myself to begin to do so again and encourage others to do. I'm big on editor retention. This is not the way to do it. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with unilateral draftification is that it can also be incredibly bitey, especially when done for arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with any of the reasons why something might be deleted at AfD (although this is less prevalent than the trivial reasons things are rejected at AfC). We should be draftifying fewer articles and not sending them to AfD either but rather leaving them in the mainspace (With appropriate tags where justified) so that they can be found and improved rather than pretending that they don't exist for six months and then deleting them. Thryduulf (talk) 12:34, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really convinced draftification is any worse than the alternatives - tagging is *also* bitey as well, and one user tagging an article and leaving it in mainspace could lead to another user seeing it and deciding to AfD. Draftification could be a way to protect an article until it enters a better state. But I think the other part I have an issue with is the lack of clear guidelines. Clearly some people have an issue with draftification and others do not, and people have different ideas what it is for. That needs to be made more concrete. Otherwise just saying "we should use draftification less" isn't going to lead to any positive changes. Fangz (talk) 12:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the general sentiment – arguing for more or less draftification does not solve the problem that new users basically can't object to it. Toadspike[Talk]12:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I envision a template (possibly one specific for relatively new users?) being something like:
1. Hi, this article has been moved to a draft form because another user thinks it has potential but is not ready for the encyclopedia just yet. REASON:
2. You can continue to work on it while it's not published, though note that if not editted for 6 months it will be deleted. Here are some useful resources.
3. When you think the article is ready you can submit the article to a review, which can give useful feedback. []
4. Alternatively you may return the article to the main encyclopedia at any time and have it be editted while part of the main encyclopedia. See WP: Draft Object. Note however that if other users think there are unfixable issues with the article it may be put forward as a candidate for deletion. Fangz (talk) 12:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my view draftified articles should (semi?) automatically return to the mainspace after timeout instead of be deleted. Or at least be re-evaluated for notability. I do not really see the reason for automatic speedy deletion, except as backdoor deletion. Fangz (talk) 18:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why can't they just improve it in mainspace, without the sting on of an initial rejection and a six month deletion countdown hanging over them? I don't get why you keep presenting this as a choice between draftspace and AfD. – Joe (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason is that "improving it in mainspace" has its own issues. An article in mainspace has to juggle being of service to the reader to being of service to the editor. This implies formal processes and wikijargon for consistency, unified templates for issues in the article, clear and ruthless labelling of problems and so on. There's a strong tendency for the first experience of an editor to be a very public and humiliating fight against established editors who have a better understanding of wikipedia processes, quickly driving the editor away or getting them blocked. It is also very difficult to improve on this experience as it would imply fundamental changes affecting all sorts of things. Meanwhile improving an article in draft mode allows for a more informal process of communication to shepherd an article towards an acceptable state. Fangz (talk) 19:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did a little work on page view statistics recently. The median article gets about one page view per week. So if the new article is typical, then it doesn't have to "be of service to the reader", because there aren't really any readers. Editors (especially NPP and RecentChanges folks) may look at a brand-new article a few dozen times on the first day, but once the reviewers leave it alone, most articles just don't have much traffic.
I think the reason we are unwilling to "improve it in mainspace" is because we're scared that we'll forget that it was there, and years later, someone will be embarrassed to discover that an WP:UGLY article has been neglected ever since. We are using draftification and other threats as a way to make otherWP:VOLUNTEERS improve the article to our idea of acceptable quality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if we're looking at different draft namespaces, but an "informal process of communication to shepherd an article towards an acceptable state" sounds like the precise opposite of our current AfC process. – Joe (talk) 06:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of a button but I do think the template should be changed. I think having a button suggests it's a default option, but I think a link is okay. Fangz (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But articles aren't inherently "AfC drafts" once draftified. People are allowed to move them back to mainspace themselves, no questions asked, or optionally submit them to AfC. The AfC draft template makes no mention of the first option. CFA💬12:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if we will ever quit using the inappropriate and legally unsound "publication" language in that template. On this wiki, it's the author, not the AFC reviewer, who "publishes" it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but then you have to specify "move to mainspace" or something and that feels really jargony. "Move out of draft", maybe? – Joe (talk) 04:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that might solve the problem. I doesn't explain to new users how their article turned into a draft, but at least there's an easy way to reverse it. I won't withdraw this for now, maybe others have thoughts. (P.S. you might want to update User:MPGuy2824/MoveToDraft) Toadspike[Talk]12:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the idea lab so no bolded comment from me, but I have mixed feelings. I am in favour of softening the experience for newcomers, but I'm opposed to the concept of draftification being automatically reversible. If a new page patroller reviews a new article and moves it to draft because it's clearly unsuitable for mainspace, the creator should need to do more than just say "I object" in order to move their clearly unsuitable article back again. I've recently proposed that all of draftspace should be move-protected at the semi level (the proposal was not well received - fair enough). This is probably the rule I ignore more than any other on Wikipedia, mostly dealing with spam sockfarms that try to abuse the rule to promote their garbage. Besides, a new user whose submission is quarantined to draft space and they're left with instructions and a list of suggestions with helpful links is already getting better treatment than most editors ever have or will, and if their reaction to that is to rage-quit then they're probably not a good fit for the collaborative environment of Wikipedia anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ivanvector, you know the joke about "If you ask three people, you'll get four opinions"? I wonder if we ask three NPPers what "ready for mainspace" means, if we'd get four opinions. AFAICT, "ready for mainspace" most often means "contains at least as many refs as the median article, but higher quality ones". All the children in Lake Wobegon are above average, and all the new Wikipedia articles must be, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I see it draftification should never be used for subjects which pass GNG, and it should only be standard for things like films/TV series/games which are in the works but have not yet begun production. Subjects with debatable notability should be sent to AFD to the issue can be resolved.★Trekker (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Subjects that pass WP:GNG should never be draftified at all, instead they should be tagged and dealt with using normal community procedures. I agree that films/TV series/games/political events probably best fit the bill for draftifications, but so do potentially notable but underdeveloped articles. Sohom (talk) 13:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is out of step with the present form of Wikipedia:DRAFTIFY, and I don't think it makes sense anyway. Articles that fail GNG should not be draftified, they should be AfDed. Films etc that are in the works should not be draftified merely because they aren't in production, and it's not really a great use for draft space because there's no guarantee that there would be a change of situation to establish notability within 6 months. Articles should be draftified only if the reviewer believes the article can be editted into an acceptable state within the time window. This implies a pass of GNG - i.e. a belief that reliable sources are potentially out there. Remember that GNG is about the *subject*, not about the state of the article. Fangz (talk) 14:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my view the correct use of draftification is sort of as an alternative version of the WIP template. An acknowledgement that the article is not ready and should be being worked on and will likely have multiple issues, but in a protected sandboxed environment to avoid overly zealous moderation and promotion of misunderstanding for casual readers, and without implying the original editor is the one working on it. For new users it should offer a less formal and jargony process to learning how to improve an article than tagging based methods, because the latter has to balance the need to inform *readers* as well as editors. Fangz (talk) 14:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you evaluate that a article passes WP:GNG, then there is not point in draftifying it, you could just add a {{sources exist}} template, patrol and move on. Alternatively, if you evaluate that a article fails WP:GNG, there is no point in wasting the article creator's time and you should WP:AFD/PROD it.
The only case where you would draftify a article is if you saw a article that a) had a credible claim to significance/notability b) does not meet/prove notability in it's current state c) has been created in the last week or so by a inexperienced article creator. Sohom (talk) 14:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if we're disagreeing or we're having some semantics thing about what "passes GNG" means.
I think then you're pretty much arguing that the draftification process should be removed entirely, and I don't agree with that. It has its advantages. It should not be made a mandatory process by any means but just as some users prefer to work on articles as a draft and then push to the public wiki, it can be a better resolution to certain issues than the alternatives. Fangz (talk) 17:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do think that we've fallen into a false binary here. The options are not "garbage in the mainspace" vs "auto-deleted as in the draftspace". There are other options (e.g., sticky prods for uncited articles, userification, bold stubbification, bold merging, developing a more consistent and predictable standard for evaluating articles, etc.). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a argument to be made that this landscape might have changed a fair bit since this research was done. The latest data that these projects consider is from 2014-2017. WP:ACTRIAL happened after that research was done, and Wikipedia's policies have changed since those times. Sohom (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible that things have changed, and I'm never one to turn down a new research project if you happen to be volunteering to do it (I believe that all the necessary data is public), but looking at the overall deletion rate in that namespace, it seems unlikely that the result will be materially different. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think then you're pretty much arguing that the draftification process should be removed entirely, and I don't agree with that. I'm sorry to pick on you but this is the clearest example yet of the circular reasoning that has got us into this mess: draftification must be good because we do it, so we must keep doing it because it's good. From literally the moment draftspace was created and people started doing this (before that, the equivalent process of userfication was expressly forbidden without prior discussion), others have been pointing out that the underlying logic makes no sense. Draftification is only for articles that shouldn't be deleted, but it's also only for articles that can't be in mainspace. But since fix good content in place is a part of the editing policy and almost all the community accepted reasons for deletion involve the potential of the article, not it's current state, the intersection of those two sets is functionally zero (apart from some consensus-established edge cases like paid creations or upcoming films).
This is why attempts to clarify and improve policy around draftification—and I've been closely involved in many of them—keep failing. You try to find a solid basis for guidelines and there just isn't one. We really need to stop trying to square the circle of justifying draftification as it is practiced now, and start asking what we the community actually wants to achieve with it and whether what we're doing now fulfils that aim. So far it's not looking good for the send-them-all-to-draftspace-and-the-god-of-notability-will-recognise-his-own camp, because there's not a shred of evidence that it helps improve content, retain editors or manage the NPP workload, and as WAID says above the empirical studies we do have concluded the precise opposite. But that picture could change with more research – somebody just needs to step up and do it! – Joe (talk) 07:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joe RoeDraftification is only for articles that shouldn't be deleted, but it's also only for articles that can't be in mainspace. That is the exact reason why draftspace exists in the first place. Imagine you see a article with the following content: Nicholas Carlini is an amazing researcher at Google working on adversarial machine learning. created in the last week or so and sourced to a person's personal web-page. On doing a quick google search, you see that the person exists and is a researcher at said company, however, due to your unfamiliarity with adversarial machine learning topic-area you are not able to immediately identify the person's impact on the field. Do you 1) WP:BITEly nominate the article for deletion 2) leave the content up for somebody to deal with it (and hope that the other somebody will not choose option 1) or 3) draftify the article with a note that more sources are required to prove notability? Sohom (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sohom Datta None of them. What you do is add a template to the article noting the lack of sources, leave a friendly message on the creator's talk page explaining the issues in plain English, and leave a note about it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computer science. Depending on what your research found you could add more information, add some sources that might or might not demonstrate notability, remove the peacock terms, etc. Yes, this is more effort than blinding draftifying or AfDing but it is far more important that things get done well than things get done quickly. Thryduulf (talk) 12:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sohom Datta, thanks for creating Nicholas Carlini, whose first version does not contain the hypothetical sentence you gave in your comment above. In your example above, why can't that stay in the mainspace? I frankly don't love it, and I'd immediately pull the word "amazing" out, but what's the policy basis for saying "that article truly can't be in mainspace"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fangz I'm not arguing for the elimination of draftspace, it has it's uses as an optional space where articles can be developed over time so they don't have to meet all the relevant content policies from the very first edit. I'm also not arguing for the elimination of all draftifcation, just the majority of unilateral draftification because, as Joe has put better than I can, it is not a net benefit to the project as currently practised. Thryduulf (talk) 12:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a middle ground between meets-GNG-mark-as-reviewed and fails-GNG-send-to-AfD: recently created articles where the sources in the article do not validate GNG, but where the new page reviewer hasn't done a BEFORE search. I think it's perfectly fair (and permissioned within the current draftification process) to say "this recently created article doesn't demonstrate GNG yet, but I'll kick it back to the creator in draft form to put in some more sources." Dclemens1971 (talk) 04:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This would mean we're either leaving these articles unpatrolled (which is obviously undesirable), or giving new page patrollers the job of finding sources on every article where the original author hasn't, which would be ideal in, well, ideal conditions, but puts the burden of actually sourcing the encyclopedia on a very small group of editors. In my opinion, there should be a way to ask the original author to add sources to show it meets GNG, beyond just putting a "notability" tag and being done with it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Chaotic Enby. Drafification is a good solution because it strongly encourages the author to improve the article, and, most importantly, gets it out of mainspace so that it isn't a problem for innocent readers – without forcing NPPers to clean up other peoples' messes. Cremastra (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Drafticiation [...] strongly encourages the author to improve the article. That's the theory but the evidence is that in practice it very rarely does this. There is also little to no evidence that most pages moved to draftspace are actually a problem for innocent readers rather than being a problem for those who want immediate perfection. Thryduulf (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About wanting to ask the original author to add sources to show it meets GNG, beyond just putting a "notability" tag and being done with it, I wonder if it's actually possible to do this in a non-coercive way. The options right now are:
Move article to Draft: space (essentially holding the article hostage, to be deleted if you give up or can't figure out how to do it).
Send to AFD today.
AFAICT a method for "force another WP:VOLUNTEER to improve the article to my standards" option has proven pretty elusive. But if you want to reach that point, I suggest that you take a baby step towards it in the form of getting a policy (any policy, really) to actually, directly, unambiguously say that every article must cite at least one source. Until the community agrees that this actually is a requirement, then we have no hope of getting them to increase the requirement all the way up to "show it meets GNG". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a new editor thinks their article is ready for mainspace, they will put it there. They will also happily revert the move. If a new editor is unsure, they will probably ask for help first or use draftspace. Cremastra (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the concern expressed by Joe and others who support the "backdoor" theory is that new users do not know how to revert the move to draftspace. Do you disagree with that assumption? Toadspike[Talk]19:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most users do not know how to revert the move, yes. I also think we shouldn't hand it to them on a silver platter, because that likely largely annuls the whole point of draftification. What is the solution to this? I couldn't tell you. Cremastra (talk) 20:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't know how, maybe, but more importantly that they don't know that they're allowed to. We have to remember how very unusual our collaborative process is. If an inexperienced editor contributes an article to Wikipedia and then it is swiftly unpublished with a message that there's something wrong with it, they won't think, hmm, I'm not sure if I agree with that, I'm going to revert and/or discuss this with my peer-editors to find a consensus. They'll think that with someone the authority to decide what happens to articles has rejected my contribution, and I'm a mere newbie. At that point they will either give up (the majority) or they'll persevere and get into cycle of trying to satisfy first the NPP reviewer and then a succession of AfC reviewers until they finally give up or manage to write a GA, which seems to be roughly the standard AfC is applying these days Even very experience editors fall into this trap because even though the templated messages try to communicate the full range of options the user has (now at least, after I and others have spent several years fighting for it), it's really hard to communicate that we're all equal and all have a say here within a draft–review structure that implicitly elevates the opinions of reviewers over others. – Joe (talk) 07:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've pulled the most recent 10 articles moved to mainspace with the AFCH script. They are:
That's an average of 372.5 words and 12.6 refs. The median article has 338 words and 4 refs. Compared to existing articles, 53% of our existing articles have fewer than 372.5 words, and 83% have fewer fewer than 12.6 refs. One in six articles has fewer words than the shortest in this list. One of three articles is shorter than the second-shortest in this list.
I think it is clear from these numbers that AFC is expecting more refs than existing community practice, and that they are trying to accept only articles that are already as long as ones that editors have been working on in the mainspace for years.
BTW, during the same span of time, more than 100 pages were deleted from the Draft: namespace. You shouldn't assume this means that more than 90% of drafts get deleted, because deletions are bursty and this is a relatively small sample size, but that's about what I expected. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A Conclusion: I am sadly not surprised at the current state of this discussion. Some of the heated off-topic arguments verge on NOTHERE behavior. I am very disappointed to see this from experienced editors. To those of you who simply commented on the proposal: I appreciate you a lot.
Since the default NPP draft template was changed to Template:Draft article a day before this discussion began, I think my proposal is moot. I don't see how we could improve that template much, but I may raise some minor wording changes on the Template Talk. If someone wants to close this discussion, that's fine; if others wish to continue discussing other things here, I wish you the all best. Toadspike[Talk]21:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth also talking about the usertalk notification MTD leaves, which only provides one option: submit for review. Agree in principle we shouldn't trick people into thinking draftification/AfC is mandatory for a typical article creator. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 13:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose All it will do is destroy the draft system as it stands and eventualy destroy Wikipedia. This almost happened between 2008 and 2012, before the draft process was available, when Wikipedia was flooded with paid/coi editors and there was no effective system to deal with them. Do folk not understand what draftification is. Every publisher has draft process. It is NOT a route to deletion. That is what the detractors of the system say, many of them who are paid to oppose it and destroy it. It is the one of the core safeguards we have against the complete destruction of Wikipedia. scope_creepTalk11:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That comment is almost entirely evidence free assumptions of bad faith. Please try engaging with the discussion rather than just knee-jerking oppose to changing the status quo because it would change the status quo. Thryduulf (talk) 12:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not evidence free and I resent the fact that you have said my comment bad faith. Why would I make the comment if I didn't know what I was talking about. I've worked in NPP/AFC since it was created and was involved in some of the early discussions. I now how exactly how UPE/paid editors behave. It would lead to an exodus of editors after the place gets flooded with adverts. It would be free-for-all. The reality is that the editor who posted hasn't thought it through and hasn't looked in the archives to see what the situation was like then. scope_creepTalk16:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Trust me, I was there" is not evidence. Your comment assumes bad faith from those disagreeing with you, and of everybody submitting new articles. Not every editor is paid (and disclosed paid editing is explicitly allowed), not every paid edit (disclosed or otherwise) is bad, not every paid editor (disclosed or otherwise) is attempting to harm the encyclopaedia, not every paid edit (even undisclosed ones) does harm the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 16:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is true to certain extent, but the majority of editors who create modern biographical, organisational and product articles which make up the majority are undeclared paid editors. They do not have our best interests at heart and never have done. scope_creepTalk16:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that is true (and you haven't provided any evidence, of either your assertion or the implications of it that these articles harm Wikipedia and/or that draftification as currently implemented and practice prevents that harm), that doesn't mean that draftification as implemented currently can't be improved and that any changes to the status quo will mean the death of Wikipedia. Thryduulf (talk) 17:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If drafts get deleted, that's because their creators have abandoned them. That's what G13 is. Perhaps more effort should be spent encouraging article writers to improve their articles after they got moved to draft (where they can be improved without interference), but draftification is not deliberate, malicious backdoor deletion, and I resent it being characterized as such. Cremastra (talk) 19:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this a Double-barreled question? The comment you're replying to said only "route to deletion", and you've turned it into four separate parts:
deliberate
malicious
backdoor
deletion.
I wouldn't personally characterize any of them as malicious, but I think a fraction of them are deliberate. IMO claiming that nobody ever sent a borderline subject to AFC instead of AFD (which has lower standards in practice) would be rather extraordinary. I frankly don't think we're all so stupid that we can't figure out which route is most likely to end up with the result we prefer.
If we characterize AFD as the "front door" for deletion, then it seems fair to describe letting articles expire in the Draft: space as the "back door".
But the original comment is merely that it's not a route to deletion. But if 90–95% all of the articles put on that path actually do end up getting deleted, then is it not basically fair to say that it is one of our routes to deletion? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current verbiage of the tag makes it clear to anyone with a lick of common sense, that the article has potential, but in its current form it is not ready for mainspace. Some of the comments here from folks clearly indicate a lack of understanding of what the draftification process is for. If an article, in its current form, passes GNG, then there are only certain circumstances where it should be draftified (e.g. paid editing), but if an article probably would pass GNG, but does not in its current form (e.g. there are not enough in-depth sources from independent, reliable sources to meet the standard), than that is a poster child for draftification. When I was more active in reviewing articles, I created several custom responses, which took the standard message and massaged it a bit depending on the reason for draftification (e.g. UPE, lack of GNG) or a specific topic (e.g. NFOOTY, Populated places). In some instances those messages contained an offer to ping me directly when they felt the article was ready for mainspace. I am all for article creation, but I also care about the quality and reputation of Wikipedia, which is often seen as the punchline for jokes regarding garbage information on the internet. And I would completely disagree with those who say that draftification is not a net benefit. In fact, I think it is one of the most useful tools to helping improve the quality on WP. Is it always used correctly? No. But that's an education problem with individual users, not an overriding issue with the process itself.Onel5969TT me14:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That might be fine in theory, but it doesn't match the what is happening in practice. Especially given that articles are being moved to draftspace for not being of sufficient quality that are C or even B class. If an article is neutrally written and meets the GNG then there is no justification for moving it to draftspace just because someone might (or might not) have been paid to edit it. Thryduulf (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Draft:Kian Breckin (footballer) – 316 words, 15 refs (moved by the author with no reason given, but it was deleted at AFD last year)
I have skipped redirects, some round-robin page swaps, and a couple of editors moving AFC submissions from User: space to the Draft: space, and tried to include only articles being moved from the mainspace to the Draft: space. I can't get the ORES ratings for these articles, but at a glance, I think that Start and C-class is not an unreasonable description. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, thanks for providing the list. The issue is, in reviewing those drafts, most are solid drafts, and not " Especially given that articles are being moved to draftspace for not being of sufficient quality that are C or even B class." Although I think a more careful explanation could have been made. For example, the first one would have been better with a "more in-depth references from independent, reliable sources" needed, rather than simply saying "more sources needed", as there isn't a single, in-depth reference from an independent, reliable source in the draft. The second and third examples are the exact same issue. The 4th and 5th examples are properly labeled as covert advertising (both editors have been blocked for it - in addition, the 4th one didn't have a single in-depth reference from an independent source, either). The 6th example, while having 3 sources, none are in-depth, and while it might be a spelling difference on the translations of the 2nd and 3rd refs, it does not appear that the article's subject is mentioned in any of them. The 7th article is not a true example of draftification, as it was moved by the author. The 8th and 9th article have zero independent reliable sources (for the 9th, the newspaper referenced does not have a page number, and the link does not appear to bring up anything in depth about the hack lab). Not sure about the 10th, for the history is a bit wacky, but again, does not look like an example of draftification.
I think this illustrates some of the misunderstanding that folks who don't like draftification make. You look at the list provided, and you go, wow, lots of references, most not stubs or micro-stubs, why in the hell were they draftified? Hell, I did that myself, wondering if all 10 were done by a single editor, who perhaps did not have a firm grasp of draftification. But then you dive into the merits of the sourcing, or the upe issues, and it appears all 8 of the draftifications appear justified.Onel5969TT me20:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Onel5969, I wonder if you could explain "the newspaper" in the 9th article a little better. You say that the article has "zero independent reliable sources", but traditional print newspapers are independent reliable sources. Then you say it doesn't have a page number, but the link takes you directly to a scanned copy of the correct page; the cited article [title given in the citation] is in the last two columns. None of that makes the newspaper less independent. Is your concern that the article appears to predate the use of the name in the article title ("De Zanbak" means "The Sandbox")? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could be the translation, but there does not appear to be anything connecting the group mentioned in that article, with De Zanbak. But even if there is, agf, that still is the only in-depth independent source. Onel5969TT me01:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a new editor includes 5 sources in their submission and it gets moved to [somewhere I didn't put it] because "more sources needed" or "no sources" how many of them are going to take the time to learn that the experienced editor actually meant none of these sources contain what I think is significant, in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources and then have the confidence to say "actually, this experienced person with the power to remove my article from Wikipedia is wrong and I'm right, I'll learn how to challenge them and how and where to express my view in a way that the powerful people will listen to me" rather than just give up at some point along that path? And before anyone says it, no, just because a few bad faith editors might be among the dissuaded does not justify the loss of good faith editors. Thryduulf (talk) 21:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that's the difference between editors who care about quality on WP, and those who care about quantity. But that's why I said that the rationale given could have been better. Onel5969TT me01:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it really a quality vs quantity question?
Or is this the difference between editors who would rather see a page run through Wikipedia:Articles for deletion or Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers instead of being unilaterally hidden until it gets deleted without the level of community oversight that we expect from AFD? For example, I'm not convinced that "De Zanbak" is a viable subject for an article, but I think there are several ways that we could address that concern, and I don't see the Draft: space helping. In fact, the only thing that moving that page to the Draft: space does that's different from moving that page to the User: space is: It's far more likely to get deleted during the next year if it's in Draft: space than if it's in User: space. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since draftification isn't a "backdoor to deletion", nor is it "hiding an article", it's definitely a question of quality vs. quantity. Draftification, in short, is a quality control measure. These are articles that might be notable enough for mainspace, but simply aren't in good enough shape to be there. But, like other vehicles in WP, good faith editors might disagree on an article's notability, so for example in the De Zandbak articlem, Jay8g (who tagged it for notability), and Jonathan Deamer (who draftified it) might deem it potentially notable, while you, WhatamIdoing, might have simply sent it to AfD, because you do not feel it notable. But that doesn't mean the system isn't working. Perhaps we can tweak the current verbiage in the template to include where resources about where an editor can reach out for help might be added (e.g. AFC or Teahouse)?Onel5969TT me09:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since draftification isn't a "backdoor to deletion", nor is it "hiding an article", you say that as if there is no possible way good faith editors could disagree, but that simply isn't true. Whether either of those things is true is a matter of opinion (and, in my opinion, one that is consistent with the evidence presented). Thryduulf (talk) 10:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. No, editors can certainly have different interpretations and disagree on issues. However, in this instance, it is not a matter of disagreement. In order to hold those views indicates a lack of understanding of what the draftification process is. That's not what draftification is, it is, as I've said, simply a quality control measure. It would be like saying, it's a matter of opinion whether or not this person wrote an article about themselves, that can be interpreted as not being COI editing. Of if a an article simply cut and paste the info from Encyclopedia Brittanica, you cannot say it's your opinion that that isn't a copyvio. I mean, I have the utmost respect for you, Thryduulf, and you do a great job on WP. There are things on WP which are subjective (e.g. exactly what constitutes SIGCOV), while others are objective, (e.g. UPE/COI editing, copyvio). What draftification is falls into the latter category. All that being said, we can disagree on whether or not an individual article should or should not have been draftified. You say the evidence presented shows that it was not warranted that those articles be sent to draft. Going through the sources, however, it looks like draftification was justified. That is a difference of opinion. Onel5969TT me14:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's your opinion that moving an article to the Draft: space is simply a quality control measure.
It's my opinion that moving an article to the Draft: space is also simply a quality control measure that, compared to the available alternatives of leaving it in the mainspace, sending it to AFD, or moving it to User: space, substantially decreases the likelihood of the quality being improved and substantially increases the likelihood of the article being deleted.
Oh, right: Those last two points ("substantially decreases the likelihood of the quality being improved" and "substantially increases the likelihood of the article being deleted") aren't "opinions". They're objective facts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rhodesia Railways 19th class is not a list; it's a train that was in operation for multiple ranges of time. Even if it were a list, the empty headings and only content being a table is nowhere near start-class, maybe even substub. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
only content being a table have you actually read the page? That infobox is full of content, there are two apparently reliable sources and the table itself has about 20 rows of content. Thryduulf (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is just an idea, and I want to workshop this a bit more, but I think it would be helpful to have pending changes at the extended confirmed level. This could be called "PC2" again (not to be confused with the original PC2) or "PCECP". The idea would be to help enforce WP:ARBECR and similar restrictions where non-extended confirmed users are prohibited from certain topic areas. Under this level, edits by non-extended-confirmed editors would be held for review, while extended confirmed users can approve these edits and thus take responsibility under WP:PROXYING.
I think it would be helpful for pages where (1) parts of the article intersect with a contentious topic, or (2) the article in its entirety intersects with a contentious topic, but not edited frequently. AwesomeAasim16:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like it could be useful. It would have to be restricted to infrequently edited pages (likely excluding all current events articles) so as not to overwhelm Pending Changes every time Reuters publishes a new story or an edit war erupts. The big question is: what problem are you trying to solve? Toadspike[Talk]20:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are some contentious topics designated either by ArbCom or the community where only extended confirmed users are allowed to participate. However, admins refuse to protect pages where there isn't enough disruption to justify protection. Although, it should be considered that the XCON restriction applies regardless of whether a page is protected or not.
What PCECP would do is essentially remove fears that there "isn't enough disruption to justify protection" while buffering all non-extended-confirmed contributions so they have to be approved, in line with "non-extended-confirmed can only make edit requests". Templates that are specifically for this case like {{edit protected}} break when the page is not protected. AwesomeAasim22:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is that the 500/30 rule is specifically designed to keep newer editors out due to extreme amounts of disruption as a rule. There's a good reason why both of the world's main hot wars (the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Russo-Ukrainian war) are under 500/30. And, as has been brought up repeatedly and bears repeating again, high volumes of edits on a given article contraindicate CRASHlock.
But the biggest stumbling block here is that no consensus exists yet for an extended-confirmed CRASHlock. The last discussion about expanding CRASHlock to higher protection levels predates XCP entirely. There would need to be a formal RfC for this, not VP spitballing. —Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques15:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
XCON protection makes sense for high traffic articles, but low traffic articles? If the edit is minor such as fixing spelling mistakes or grammatical errors, there should be no problem. Fixing spelling and grammar is generally outside of contentious topic areas anyway. From WP:ARBECR: On any page where the restriction is not enforced through extended confirmed protection, this restriction may be enforced by other methods, including ... the use of pending changes.
I probably would set up abuse filters as well to see if a page is in a category that primarily deals with a contentious topic, and then warn and tag the edit in question. AwesomeAasim16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most low-traffic CT articles don't have any protection since they never saw amounts of vandalism necessitating protection. Protection requests that solely rely on arb enforcement and little to no evidence of vandalism get declined. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I see that, but the problem is that a non-XCON edit will get approved on pages that not many people are watching. Pending changes still allows non-XCON users to make these edits, but their edits will need to be approved and they can be reverted if in violation of WP:ARBECR. This is also in line with how pending changes is used on low-traffic articles to monitor (not prevent) disruption. AwesomeAasim18:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaron LiuMost low-traffic CT articles don't have any protection since they never saw amounts of vandalism necessitating protection. Protection requests that solely rely on arb enforcement and little to no evidence of vandalism get declined. Untrue, articles in ECR topics can and are pre-emptively locked. What actually happens is that articles with minimal disruption are usually not brought to WP:RFPP or noticed by a wayward admin. Mach6119:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Untrue, articles in ECR topics can and are pre-emptively locked.
Seems reasonable. I've always wondered why pending changes isn't deployed more often. It seems a useful tool, and there are lots of pending changes reviewers so very little backlog Cremastra (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still not seeing it. People supposedly mistrust it because there was a trial 14 years ago and enwiki admins didn't immediately stop using it after the trial period pending a consensus on the future of the feature? Anomie⚔18:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The TL;DR I'm taking away from this discussion is that you're still butthurt over consensus not going your way 12 or 13 years ago, and assuming that anyone opposed to PC shares that reason and no other. I think it's unlikely continuing this conversation is going to go anywhere useful. Anomie⚔18:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't how consensus works, either. Consensus can be determined by an RfC, yes. But it can also develop just by the way that things are done already, regardless of whether it has formally discussed.
I think about the example given by Technology Connections about "the danger of but sometimes". The LED traffic light is superior in energy savings and much more, but sometimes snow and ice builds up on them, so they are bad. Likewise, XCON pending changes will help with enforcement of WP:ARBECR but sometimes admins might apply this to pages out of policy, so it shouldn't be used again. The correct response would be to place in policy guardrails so that admins don't do that. AwesomeAasim19:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is an RfC from over 13 years ago still reflective of consensus today? I am pretty certain that while some opinions might not have changed, others definitely will have. No one is saying there should be full pending changes. AwesomeAasim18:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you might be the only one using this terminology; as it is not in WP:GLOSSARY or anywhere else.
Nonetheless, this is the Idea Lab; it is the place to develop ideas, not to show stark opposition to ideas. That is what the other discussion boards are for; consensus polling. It should be noted that WP:ECP was created originally for the purpose of enforcing arbitration decisions and community sanctions. It was never intended for anything else; it just got used for other stuff de facto. AwesomeAasim18:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) All these things you think are obvious really are not. You should try explaining yourself better instead of emphatically waving your hands at something random. Anomie⚔18:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious perhaps, but it still doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure how using your own special terms of unclear implications to disparage things you dislike is helping communication or community understanding here. Cremastra (talk) 19:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. People mistrust PC because of a bureaucratic misimplementation of an experiment over 10 years ago? (In a noncentralized bureaucracy where dumb shit happens all the time?) The RfC is explicit that it makes no normative judgement on PC, and it seems the !voters are not doing so either. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth noting that the 2017 RfC is the last one about any aspect of CRASHlock, to my knowledge. As I said above, there would need to be a new RfC in order to get consensus for extended-confirmed CRASHlock, as PC2 was originally full-protection level and no ECP!CRASHlock question was asked in the2016RfCs, none of which were particularly comprehensive. (The last comprehensive RfC was the 2014 clusterfuck.) —Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques06:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the main reasons editors don't want to expand the use of pending changes are practical: no technical support for fixes (or additional feature development) is on the horizon, in spite of documented bugs; and uncertainty in the community's ability to manage expanded use. There are certainly vocal editors who are wary due to past history, but this has already been a factor in other decisions, and they have accordingly been influenced to be more definitive about how any trials will proceed. isaacl (talk) 18:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe what is needed is this...
A multi-part RfC asking how ECR should be enforced for existing pages, including based on activity. High traffic pages will need extended protection retroactively as those tend to get the most disruption from ECR violations. Low-traffic pages, not so much, but we can use abuse filters and workshop ECP pending changes for this. Spelling and grammar fixes as far as I am aware are excluded from WP:ARBECR. AwesomeAasim19:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything started in some year, and linking that year to an article about a bunch of irrelevant info is not helpful. But in an article about a poem written in 1794, it is quite reasonable to link to an article about other very related stuff in that year. That is not a rule but is a defensible view, particularly for poems from 230 years ago where it is a bit of a miracle that we have any record of the poem. Johnuniq (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a defensible view, specifically for subjects that are discussed/linked in the article. It's similar to our WP:BIDIRECTIONAL principle for navboxes: if you can get from 1794 in poetry to The Little Girl Lost, then it would be ideal if you could get back.
This is a list of German films that are scheduled to release in 2023.
For the first, the link label is "1794 poem", and if you are surprised that clicking on "1794 poem" takes you to 1794 in poetry, then perhaps you weren't paying attention to what you were clicking on.
My 2¢: remove direct links, but put the "YEAR in TOPIC" articles in the "see also" section. This removes any MOS:EGG issues and is if anything more consistent with an analogy to bidirectional navboxes Mach6103:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key issue here (justifying this position) is that while "2023 in poetry" may be related in that it's the same year and not too much poetry was published at that time, that doesn't mean it is relevant or useful in relation to that poem to know what 100 other random poems were published the same year. Mrfoogles (talk) 06:21, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
URL expansion bots
I agree that short URLs are undesirable. However, wouldn't it be better if a bot auto-expanded those URLs instead of them being blacklisted? For example youtu.be into youtube.com/watch?v= , tinyurl.com/example into example.com (that is its actual target). Elominius (criticize | contributions) 09:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason they're blacklisted is not because they're "undesirable", it's because they can be (and have been) used to get around the spam blacklist and other anti-spam measures. If the link is legitimate, there's no reason the user trying to add it can't expand it. Anomie⚔11:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Anomie:there's no reason the user trying to add it can't expand it The reason is that the enduser does not know that they have to do that, and the message does not explain that that is what should be done (or how). And several sites use shorter URLs when you use the Share button, which is a type of URL shortener that only goes to one domain, like a domain alias and therefore cannot be abused for malicious purposes. Polygnotus (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can certainly see a justification for treating shorteners linked to a single domain (like youtu.be) differently to generic ones like tinyurl. Thryduulf (talk) 23:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For that case, as I had written in VPT, the bot could do blacklist checking and reversion if the expanded link hits the blacklist; or we just integrate the automatic expansion mechanism into MediaWiki. MilkyDefer08:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This misses the point that people could use a URL shortener to link to spam or malware even if the target is not blocked. A quick check of a diff of someone doing that shows the shortener link and the person checking would need to be fully motivated to examine what happens if they click it. If the original edit adds a link to a marketplace or a dubious site, it is a lot easier to revert. We do not want a bot which blesses external links by expanding them. Johnuniq (talk) 01:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly the bot could discover who added the link, if the account passes some heuristic tests of trustworthiness, it would be considered reliable-enough for expansion. Lot of work though. How big of a problem are short URLs? -- GreenC02:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It depends what problem you are referring to. According to the Meta discussion they are used to post spam links, but they also prevent the addition of good links and may (I don't know of any statistics) discourage the inclusion of sources and/or lead to abandoned edits both of which could negatively impact editor retention (directly or indirectly) - all of which are problems, but different ones.
I think the ideal would be for MediaWiki to perform a pre-save transform to expand short URIs to their full form, then check them against the blacklist, then either save the long form or reject the edit as appropriate (The error message for a rejected edit should display both short and long URIs so editors know which link tripped the blacklist and why). I guess this is something that would need to happen at the software level though? I'm also wondering if there is some means of automatically detecting which URIs are shortened or if that would have to be curated manually? (e.g. would it know that http://sucs.org/uri/as is a short URI (leading to URL shortening) without being told?) Thryduulf (talk) 03:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
. I have not read the meta thread but suspect most cases are good faith and the bad instances are on the edge. It's easy to check, manually go through a couple dozen and see how it looks.
. To expand to long form requires querying a header, external site, or API, might not practical at the MediaWiki interactive layer.
Using Wikidata for infoboxes has been discussed many times here and is surprisingly (to me) controversial. Some specific infoboxes do incorporate information from Wikidata (iirc Mike Peel has done some work on this), but I don't think a single generic infobox, whether pulling information from Wikidata or otherwise, will gain consensus. I'll leave a note about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Infoboxes and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikidata. Thryduulf (talk) 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah… a LOT of resistance to importing data from Wikidata into our infoboxes. The two main concerns are Verifiability/reliability (although WD has improved on this front, they still are not in line with our policies) and ease of editing (having to go to WD to edit information appearing on WP can be confusing).
I’ll share a personal experience of confusion… the data focused structure of WD is often incomprehensible to me as a text focused editor here at WP. When I try to fix errors on WD, I have extreme difficulty doing so. simply locating the information I need to edit is hard. The way WD pages are organized and structured is alien gobbledygook to me. Blueboar (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikidata is a good idea in want of a usable interface. It's use would be massively helped if you could edit data here and it was back flushed to Wikidata. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°14:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's how most of the Wikivoyages are set up. It's not automagic (except possibly at German), so you have complete control over which bits you import locally and which bits of your content you push back to Wikidata. The control is important because some content is different. For example, Wikivoyage usually wants to put the lat/long location at the entrance to an location, and Wikidata usually wants the center. There's no need to override each other's locations if these happen to be significantly different (e.g., entrance to Disney World vs center of Disney World). When they're the same, then you can share them back and forth. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:23, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commons only has one kind of infobox. We have a lot of them that have very different data displayed. Personally, I'd love to incorporate wikidata into nearly all infoboxes, but one generic infobox is impossible to suit our needs. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really think that this type of infobox (maybe in collapse form) is the best replacement for infobox of articles that we cannot create any infobox for them like Quantum computing. These data includes links to WikiQuote and its library id etc., which makes them accessible and at hand. I propose to use this kind of infobox in other sections like "See also" section, instead of top, replacing many existing templates like {{Commons category}}. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, what value could be derived from using d:Q17995793 to populate an infobox for the article Quantum computing? Do we really need an infobox for that article to clarify that the subject is an instance of "academic discipline", subclass of "computation", and is the study of "quantum computer" and/or "quantum supremacy"? This is an excellent example of an article that has no need for an infobox. Folly Mox (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see you want to use the infobox at the bottom of an article like a navbox? That's less objectionable, and also a different kind of box in our jargon. Folly Mox (talk) 02:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense There are good links to WikiQuote, Wikiversity, Wikidata, WikiCommons, Library of Congress authority ID, that is attached to the main article by simply transcluding this template. This is a big benefit for Wikidata-Infobox of Quantum computing. But collapsing this Wikidata Infobox by default seems reasonable. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 06:26, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can already do that by linking to the ones that are important at the bottom—this is extremely common, and is already done on that article! That brings up a key point of resistance to this, though. We don't want to outsource much to Wikidata because we can't as easily decide what not to show, lest we pollute articles with metadata that may be useful in a database but is functionally useless garbage in an encyclopedia article. Fundamentally, we shouldn't ever expect editors to have to use Wikidata also.Remsense ‥ 论06:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the decision whether it's worth linking to Wikiquote on a given article should be up to the editors for that article. Remsense ‥ 论06:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our job to build Wikiquote, but it is our job not to indiscriminately clutter our encyclopedia articles with useless garbage. Your position would be resented by almost any editor who cares about how the articles they write look and what exactly they present to readers. Remsense ‥ 论06:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hooman Mallahzadeh, your idea of a single general use template to build sister project links from the associated Wikidata item for use in the ==External links== section does actually sound like a good idea, but people in this subthread have been confused by your use of the term infobox (which live at the top of the article). However, this sounds identical to the existing template {{Sister project auto}}. How does your idea differ? Folly Mox (talk) 12:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So all that considered, @Hooman Mallahzadeh, I'd suggest just making/forking a template along those lines (or editing the existing template in its sandbox), as this basic concept would be uncontroversial. The rest of the discussion here is hypothetical clutter until people see precisely what you have in mind that may be radically different from what is already being used in these templates above. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something like Category:Earth shows how hard it is to get an automatic, good infobox and not a load of weird entries. "Instance of: "inner planet of the Solar System (Mars, Venus)" And Mercury? if you for some reason list the others here, list them all... "Named after: *soil (Earth) *land (1, 地, 地球) *ball (2, 球, 地球) " Er, what? No idea why the Japanese is shown here. "Inception: 4,541st millennium BC (lead-lead dating, age of the Earth, Young Earth creationism)" Yeah, we sure want a link to Young Earth creationism here... "Dissolved, abolished or demolished date: unknown value (future of Earth)" Not even a link, just the text, as if this is in any way useful. And this is hardly some obscure example. Fram (talk) 14:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unverified information and incorrect information (what I presume you mean by "errors") are not synonyms. Not everything in WikiData is any of unverified, incorrect or nonsense. Thryduulf (talk) 20:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ssilvers There's an easy parameter to only include information with references. Bad references exist and can be easily fixed using the same methods on both sites. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikidata has different sourcing standards than enwiki - sites that are considered unreliable by enwiki consensus are considered quite fine at Wikidata. Wikidata entries are also left out of existing enwiki cleanup mechanisms. So it's not quite as simple as you're suggesting to apply the same methods to both sites - the two sites have neither the same methods nor a shared understanding of what a "bad reference" even is. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is anyone trying to develop a shared understanding, or does everyone think that it's just OK that the site are disconnected like that, even thought they could help each other much more? If you have links to discussions, I'd be happy to read them. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My perception is it's mutual apathy in both userbases: people who write an encyclopedia aren't coterminous with people who want to build a universal database. While the results are unfortunate, it really would be unreasonable to expect one group of volunteers to operate according to the standards of the other. Remsense ‥ 论06:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should make it known to Wikidata why and which sources are bad and often false. I don't see any source that is considered very valid on Wikidata and removed-on-sight on Wikipedia. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Curiously, one of the arguments in that RfC is "FInd a Grave is sourced from gravestones". Wouldn't citing the gravestone be better in that case instead? Veering off-topic here, though. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that Wikidata is wrong is just a claim. It's a wiki, it is closely integrated with Wikipedia, and it can be as right or as wrong as Wikipedia itself. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we know Wikipedia is flawed… Which is why we DON’T consider Wikipedia a reliable source, and DON’T use one part of Wikipedia to verify other parts of Wikipedia. Blueboar (talk) 21:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But what's wrong with that if we can machine-verify that the reused part has a source? This isn't about sourcing to Wikidata, it's about reusing sourced content from wikidata, for all the reasons {{excerpt}} is good. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is anyone suggesting to use Wikidata to verify things on Wikipedia? I don't think so. I certainly don't.
People are suggesting to insert things that are written on Wikidata into the English Wikipedia in some cases when it's more efficient to do it. They can be verified just like Wikipedia itself. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Wikipedia should prioritise efficiency. We should prioritise care. If people want to reuse sourced content from Wikidata, they can add the content and add the source. We shouldn't just invite it in uncurated. Folly Mox (talk) 02:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To paraphrase Shrek: But it is curated. What's the difference if it's curated by a Wikipedia editor or by a Wikidata editor? Wikidata it not a completely separate site. The two sites have always been closely related in terms of both community and technology, and with the same ultimate goal of free knowledge edited as a wiki. If there are differences between them in verifiability policy, I'd think about trying to bridge them instead of dismissing the idea of collaboration outright. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't leave curation of content that is included in articles to people who generally aren't looking at or directly editing said articles. This seems very straightforwardly obvious to me. Remsense ‥ 论13:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But why do you think that they aren't looking at the articles? I very often edit things on Wikidata because I notice that they appeared incorrectly on Wikipedia, and then I check that the information was updated correctly on both Wikidata and Wikipedia. (It happens more in other languages, such as Hebrew, Spanish, or Russian, because the English Wikipedia uses Wikidata less.)
And what's the difference between changing a thing on Wikidata that will be included in a Wikipedia article and changing a template within Wikipedia that will be included in other pages? (Other than the different URL.) Or changing an image on Commons and Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The curation processes between the two sites are entirely different. en.wiki is primarily curated at the individual page level, wikidata seems to be primarily curated at cross-sections where lots of pages intersect. (Also worth considering how much of Wikidata is created by bots pulling from other wikis.) CMD (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because they're editing a database! They might not even speak English, never mind take into account the nuances of how the English Wikipedia (or any other project, to be clear) may be affected by what they are directly doing. Whether you think they aren't totally different websites, they are different websites. I really don't think I have to get sociological to discuss a set of social facts here that are fairly obvious to everyone who contributes to a Wikimedia project. "Wikipedia is one site, Wikidata is another" should also answer your second question: if someone breaks a template, it is not a paradigm shift for me to fix it or ask someone else to, because that occurs on the same website. You're a free spirit and that's fine; any design decision that assumes this quality of contributors in general would be a terrible one. Remsense ‥ 论14:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another way to think of it is that they are the same website with different URLs.
And I'm not sure what are you referring to by "quality of contributors" and "free spirit" towards the end. In my understanding, a free spirit in a free encyclopedia is a good thing, but I suspect that you mean something different. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That, by itself, is not a problem. You can include some things from it on Wikipedia, and exclude others. That's more or less what happens on the English Wikipedia already, but it happens more in some other languages, and it works there fairly well. I don't understand the resistance that some English Wikipedians have to include anything from Wikidata. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are built from the outset to be connected, similarly to Commons.
Share user accounts.
Share a large part of the editing community. I don't have precise numbers, and of course there are some Wikipedia editors who don't do anything on Wikidata and vice versa, but there is a lot of overlap.
Closely related in terms of underlying infrastructure and overlapping goals doesn't equate to being the same website with different URLs. By design, each Wikimedia wiki has its own community, with its own culture, that defines its own guidance and operating procedures. isaacl (talk) 22:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All I'm trying to say is that it's not very different from Commons. It's separate in some ways and the same in some others. Some data from Commons and Wikidata is useful in the English Wikipedia, some isn't. Emphasizing only the differences, as some English Wikipedians do, is neither correct nor useful. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All en.wiki takes from Commons is essentially file urls. It's a very different place to en.wiki with very different norms. CMD (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And, um, the files, not just the URLs, right?
Whatever internal norms Commons has, the English Wikipedia takes a lot of files from it. And it can be the same with Wikidata. The English Wikipedia already takes some data from it, and it can take more.
I'm actually not specifically supporting using the generic Wikidata infobox in the English Wikipedia. I'm just trying to understand the resistance that some English Wikipedia editors have to including anything at all from Wikidata. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 03:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Key elements of the resistance have been explained elsewhere in this thread. They relate to a lower quality of sourcing, higher vulnerability to vandalism, and difficulty in editing Wikidata. Sourcing issues do not apply to commons, and file modifications there are restricted to those with advanced permissions. En.wiki does not import files from Commons, although it does host files separately when they are ineligible for inclusion on Commons. CMD (talk) 04:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commons benefits from the shared requirements set by the Wikimedia Foundation on media usage, so files are readily usable on any Wikimedia wiki. (Of course, media that embeds information, such as annual stats, suffer from similar problems as Wikidata: its accuracy is dependent on the uploader.) For those concerned about the verification standards on Wikidata, unfortunately I don't really have a good suggestion on creating better processes to validate edits while keeping the "anyone-can-edit, everyone verifies" approach. By its nature, the data is very dense, so I think trying to double check all incoming edits is a more tedious and onerous job than can be expected of volunteers to do. isaacl (talk) 06:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However, the Wikidata editors do not curate content in articles: editors at wikis that use the wiki-data do. Wikidata is the sourced information, and editors decide which ones to include. That is also why I think templates should include per-parameter overrides before switching to wiki-data by default. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, per-parameter overrides is what is done in Wikipedia in all the languages in which templates pull information from Wikidata, and it makes perfect sense. If this is not the situation anywhere, I'd be very surprised. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikidata Infobox on Commons came out of initial work that I was doing here on enwiki - it's the same codebase as {{Infobox person/Wikidata}} and the like, but evolved a lot more due to a lot of constructive input on Commons. It has two views - one for people, one for everything else, and that's been shown to work very well overall, and is a lot more scalable and maintainable than thousands of more specialised templates. Technically, Wikidata infoboxes are quite mature now - and similar ones to this are used a lot on different language Wikipedias. Wikidata is also quite well integrated into different workflows across Wikimedia nowadays (including here with WiR redlists). The main question is a social one: whether the enwp community is interested in pursuing Wikidata infoboxes, and spending the time and energy to constructively contribute to improving data and refining template logic, as the Commons community and other language Wikipedia communities have. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that, at this point, we still have too much fear of the unknown and Not invented here syndrome to accept much help from Wikidata. Other wikis will (and do) benefit from it, but we will have to nibble around the edges for another decade.
It's possible that we should be exploring something closer to the bi-directional but manual syncing that the Wikivoyages use (e.g., for official websites and the latitude/longitude of notable locations). If you haven't seen that, then go to your favorite vacation destination at voy: (e.g., voy:en:Paris/7th_arrondissement#See) and scroll down until you find a section that has [add listing] next to the usual section editing buttons. Click that and you'll get a big dialog box. On the right, find the blank for Wikidata and put in a famous landmark (e.g., "Eiffel Tower"; it won't save the edit until you manually tell it to). Click on "quick fetch" to see what Wikidata offers (and then "Cancel" all the way out, so you don't make any changes to the article or to Wikidata). There's also a dialog that lets you choose individual bits (e.g., I want my URL but Wikidata's latitude/longitude, or to remotely replace old information in Wikidata with newer information). Something like this could be done, and could even be set to require sources. Adding sources to Wikidata is usually quite easy, as you just choose the type (e.g., ISBN, DOI, URL...) and add the raw id number/URL directly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While agree with your assessment of WP decision processes, and I really do think we should ideally be doing more with WD structured data here, WD does not make anything easy (echoing Blueboar above), and frankly (from my attempts to raise this issue with them) does not seem to have any concern with the concept of UX at all. The Commons interface works well, but as soon as it migrates you over to edit Wikidata fields directly, you are forced into their bafflingly perplexing interface, where something that should be as basic as the difference between a "property" and a "reference" (and where to add a citation, which is recommended -- but which is not a "reference") is beneath several minutes of documentation. (The weirdest thing about all of this is that on the WD Discord it seems that people misplacing or not adding data is their #1 maintenance task.)
The project (in its current state) is usable if we can limit as much user interaction as possible to our end, but even Commons has not able been to do this fully. (Note: I feel free to complain about some WD editorship here because I've raised these same issues to WD editors directly many times already, often with poor responses.) SamuelRiv (talk) 15:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The main things I would want to have in place before I could support deeper integration of Wikidata into Wikipedia articles are:
an obvious marker in the wikicode for where a parameter is being pulled from Wikidata (like |parameter=:wd or something), with the ability to overwrite it locally just by overwriting it or clearing it
clearer error messages that make it obvious to people with no experience in Wikidata which datum the template is missing or unable to understand, which links directly to the property on the Wikidata item that is causing the problem, or if it's not present, one link to the property description and one link to the source item
I've run into a few template errors where the error arose at Wikidata, and in no case was I ever able to resolve these myself. If pro-Wikidata–integration editors here are willing to put in the work to make their templates friendly to Wikipedia editors with moderate and below technical aptitude, then I might consider getting on board, but at present they act like inscrutable black boxes, and their effect in practice is to disempower a large subset of editors in this community. Folly Mox (talk) 12:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this. I remember the fiascos when {{start date and age}} would scream when improper wiki-data returned multiple dates for just one selector. There should be a way for these templates to error themselves without having the error overwritten by outer, wrapper templates. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Adding sources to Wikidata is usually quite easy, as you just choose the type (e.g., ISBN, DOI, URL...) and add the raw id number/URL directly. "
Random item [44], first unsourced entry: "taxon". "Add reference" opens field "property", which gives a dropdown with 5 possibilities. I want to use a book, so I guess "stated in" would be the right choice. A new dropdown opens, with endless choices, starting with "human"???, "human settlement"???, painting, village, family name... What the bleep is this about??? Perhaps I need to enter "book" and I can continue? Oh, no, it just stops there. Wikidata is extremely non-intuitive and random. Fram (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to use a book, so I guess "stated in" would be the right choice.
Yeah, so just enter the name of the book... Expecting that it can guess what book you want to cite is quite unreasonable. You can also just choose "ISBN-13" instead of "stated in". Aaron Liu (talk) 11:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it is possible to learn by reading the manual (I would hope so!) I think their challenge to the characterization of it as simply "easy" was fair enough. Remsense ‥ 论11:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's at least as easy to add a reference in Wikidata as it is in Wikipedia. That the methods are not the same does not change this. Thryduulf (talk) 11:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One difference worth noting is that on en.wiki someone can search Help:Citation and find something, while in Wikidata most Help: pages are Wikidata items. There is a guide at Wikidata:Help:Sources, but it only guides towards sources that are either Wikidata items or urls. CMD (talk) 12:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point on the borked searching, but there is a "Help" button in the main menu. You seem to have missed the "Different types of sources" section. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how you come to that odd conclusion. The different types of sources section is a guide to creating Wikidata items, not to sourcing them. CMD (talk) 13:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It guides you on how you can cite a database with an item ID (the database is indeed a Wikidata item, but usually, the item for the database you use has already been created), a headstone, Wikisource, and archive records. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This threaded conversation is about the assertion of whether adding a Wikidata reference is "usually quite easy", in the context of comparisons to en.wiki. If I stated it was easy to reference something in en.wiki, you just have to create a new article for it, I suspect people would not find that a convincing argument or helpful contribution. CMD (talk) 13:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New items on Wikidata are not articles. Their difficulty is far from that of new articles. That said, auto-generated reference items from e.g. a URL would help a lot. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's genuinely easy. While the "Create a new item" button in the main menu isn't that noticeable, the steps from there are nearly as easy as filling out {{cite book}}. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having created items it is not quite as easy as the nice en.wiki citation creator, but aside from that I don't see what the value is in ignoring the multiple people who have stated they find it difficult to parse Wikidata. CMD (talk) 23:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Auto-generated reference items from URLs are planned for Wikidata, and since Citoid will be used to generate them, they'll be just as erroneous and silly as they are here. Folly Mox (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't follow at all. Wikidata with a reference generated by the tool would have similar references as those generated by that tool if the editors involved are the same, and if the scrutiny afterwards is the same. But since Wikidata has for example poor bots creating articles or adding problematic references, and doesn't have the same level of vandalism control as Wikipedia (even though here as well too much slips through the cracks), the end result is that Wikidata quality is too often way below Wikipedia quality. Fram (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Items included on wikis will be scrutinized as well as the main wiki is, and I'm not sure what problematic bot contributions you're referring to. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an example, CJMbot[45]. Latest edits include creating an item on a very obscure 17th c. author[46], and then a week later readding the same items and references to it. Another bot then comes along and removes the duplicate items, but adds the duplicate references to the earlier items. Good going... I noticed this bot because at John Cage it added a second date of birth[47] sourced to Museum Dhondt-Dhaenens. Completely unverifiable, the museum exists but what is meant? Some database, a catalogue, information inside the museum? The result is that e.g. the infobox at Commons now since nearly two years shows the correct and an incorrect birthdate. Fram (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks as if that bot has wrecked countless Wikidata items, many subtly, some extremely blatant. Some concerns were raiesd on its talk page, but despite reassurances that the bot owner would look into it, nothing was done apparently, and no one noticed the massive amount of disruption. Which yet again illustrates to me that we should use Wikidata as sparsely as possible, and not trust it to be good enough to add content to enwiki. See [48], a chemical compound that thanks to this bot is also a human with a birth date and so on. Not a one-off, see [49][50][51][52]... Fram (talk) 10:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that is problematic. Looking at its request for bot permissions, it takes CSV databases submitted by museums and attempts to match them for people, hence the comments on "this was indeed a problem in the data". There hasn't been any discussions on the bot linking people to chemical compounds yet, somehow. Hopefully this time I start a discussion at a talk page, someone will notice. However, when such data is included on Wikipedia, I'm sure people will notice whatever incorrect data there is like you did and fix it. The Recent Changes also has a lot of edits that are shown as manually patrolled, so it's not like their vandalism control is that low. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to disappoint you, but yes, their vandalism control really is way, waaaay too low. I'm still waiting for someone to revert even one of the 5 vandal edits I bookmarked more than 2 days ago, and today it took nearly 4 hours for someone to realise that "Succcca ahahhaha " (English description: "TUA MADRE STR")[53] is not the correct English label of The Lord of the Rings. If even such high profile articles and such blatant vandalism take this long to be reverted... (And yes, this means that the Commons infobox showed this for 4 hours as well). Fram (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have you considered that everybody who saw that is doing the same as you and timing how long it takes for someone else to fix it? Has it occurred to you to fix things rather than passively disrupting the wiki to make a point? 15:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC) Thryduulf (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Yeah, so just enter the name of the book": where? after the "stated in" box? "Stated in" comes with a lengthy explanation, which even on my widescreen ends with "in which a claim is ma..." without any possibility of accessing the remainder of that text. What's the point of the dropdown after you pick "stated in" if none of these make any sense here. But okay, I add a book title after "stated in". Oops, I want to include a book which doesn't have a Wikidata entry: impossible (or what else does the pinkish-red box mean?). Oh right, according to your help page, if you want to use a reference which doesn't already exist as an item on Wikidata, you first have to create an item for it. So easy! If you are truly out of luck, it is a reference with different editions, and then you have to create two new Wikidata items before you can use it as a source. Want to use a newspaper article as a reference? First create a Wikidata itam for the newspaper article. On Wikipedia, I take the dropdown for the type of reference I want to add (only showing things I can actually use, not "human"), it shows me what the standard fields are, and I don't need to create other stuff only to be able to source something. Trying to edit Wikidata is just an endless source of frustration which I happily avoid and don't want to inflict on others at all. Still, it is nice to see how the number of human edits at Wikidata is constantly artificially inflated by e.g. claiming that I have made 951 edits at Wikidata instead of a dozen or so. Oh well, I have bookmarked 5 bits of Wikidata vandalism to see how fast they get reverted, has that visit to Wikidata given me some fun after all. Fram (talk) 12:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
where? after the "stated in" box?
Yeah, there's a reason the param is called "stated in". That's more intuitive than the book icon in the source editor's toolbar.
which even on my widescreen ends with "in which a claim is ma..." without any possibility of accessing the remainder of that text
It displays completely on my standard 1080p.
What's the point of the dropdown after you pick "stated in" if none of these make any sense here.
That's just like how for the "author-link" parameter, TemplateWizard—the visual way of inserting templates—automatically suggests every article that begins with whatever you typed. However, I do agree that just like the TemplateWizard, Wikidata should not be automatically suggesting things when you haven't typed anything.
you first have to create an item for it. So easy!
It's genuinely easy. While the "Create a new item" button in the main menu isn't that noticeable, the steps from there are as easy as filling out {{cite book}}. Fair point on having to fill it in twice for the edition item.
it shows me what the standard fields are
Wikidata also does. Every class of objects (denoted by whatever you put in for "instance of") has a recommended set of statements that you should fill in; these will be automatically suggested when you click on the "add statement" button. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You must be looking at a completely different Wikidata (and Wikipedia) than I am than. If Visual Editor is as bad as Wikidata, then that's another good reason not to use it. I don't get a "book" icon, I get a nice textual dropdown with "cite book", "cite web", "cite news" and so on. Standard fields: you claim "Wikidata also does.". No, it doesn't. After I have added a book title after "stated in", nothing happens. I don't get e.g. the pages parameter, or "chapter", or anything. I just have to know which ones are expected. Fram (talk) 13:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If learning how to edit Wikipedia can be a bit steep learning how to use Wikidata is like walking into a brick wall. Especially on mobile I find it simply unusable. I genuinely feel it would be easy to use if you had to write SQL commands. That's not an attack on the concept of Wikidata, rather a criticism of its implementation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°14:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the Drag'n'drop gadget is default-on, and this 22-second-long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP-qJIkjPf0 shows that it takes only a couple of seconds to import a source directly from Wikipedia into the ref field in Wikidata.
Click the 'edit' button for that item (if you're not already editing the item).
Click '+ add reference'.
Choose a reference type from the dropdown list. This may require a little advance knowledge (equivalent to knowing which of the many citation templates to use), but it usually suggests something sensible, like "reference URL".
Paste the URL (or other ref information) into the box.
Click 'publish'.
I'm certain that every person in this discussion is capable of learning how to do this, and I'm pretty sure that most of us would find that it takes mere seconds after we have learned the simple steps in the process. This takes, at the most, four clicks, pasting the source, plus sometimes typing the name of a suitable reference type (if the type you want isn't already showing in the list).
The drag-n-drop approach doesn't even require that much effort. Just scroll to the list of Wikipedias at the end of the Wikidata item and click [ref] for the language you want to copy the ref from. A copy of the Wikipedia article will open. Find the ref you want to re-use, and drag it over. Script-assisted copying and pasting does not sound like a difficult task to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I first add the source to Wikipedia, and then copy it to Wikidata to be able to, er, use it on Wikipedia? How does this make life easier? The video uses Mabery Gelvin Botanical Garden[54] and adds a second ref to the state it is in, Illinois. So if we had an infobox generated from Wikidata, it would have shows that it was located in Illinois, just like it does now. Apart from the fact that the state is no longer mentioned at Wikidata for some reason... It was added in 2016 (with a retrieval date of 2012, not good) and removed more than a year ago. Good thing we don't rely on that site. Considering that none of the 5 examples of vandalism I yesterday recorded have been reverted, it seems vandal fighting on Wikidata is still problematic anyway. Fram (talk) 07:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The tool is for easily importing existing citations. A tool to help create new citations still needs to be made. Also, the Wikidata item was changed to be in Champaign county, which seems correct. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As said by Chipmunkdavis below, the tool isn't even visible to mere mortals, is it a toggle in the preferences? And I didn't claim that Champaign county is incorrect, but that if the infobox was Wikidata-filled, it would have changed from "Illinois" (good, informative for most people, wanted) to "Champaign county" (not informative for most people, certainly without "Illinois"). Or, to be even more exact, it would have removed "Illinois" from the infobox but not even added "Champaign county" in its place, as on Wikidata, Champaign county is not even referenced... USA wouldn't be shown either, as that is "referenced" to enwiki. The only references in the article are 404 errors. It's not an example I deliberately picked, it's one given by WhatamIdoing (though involuntarily I guess), but it is typical of Wikidata, even after 10+ years. Even when one goes to a basic article, say Illinois[55], it has hardly any reliable sources. Fram (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the gadget is not enabled by default and needs to be toggled. Naming locations as within their provinces is a style convention independent of data. Infoboxes could easily make two calls to Wikidata for the location. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't seem to be the default. My Wikidata interface (including for Mabery Gelvin Botanical Garden (Q5477670)) has the various wiki links at the bottom of the page, and without [ref] icons. CMD (talk) 09:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another key difference (in my experience) between WP and WD: on WP it is acknowledged that there is a learning curve and entry barriers to editing, and in virtually every VP conversation the notion of how to mitigate this is brought up; on WD the conversations I've had seem indicative that editors believe that it is completely intuitive at its core -- either they don't believe they can make it any easier for users, or that users' difficulties are their own fault (this is just the impression I've had from conversations -- admittedly I'm very direct about reporting interface problems). Additionally, when asked, WD editors did not seem interested in running user interaction experiments or examining existing UX data.
Again, this is not to dogpile on WD for no reason. I believe in the project's core purpose, but I feel at this point like I gotta yell at any direction to get them to wake up. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the work required to update Wikidata: when I last made a change, which was admittedly a long time ago, I had to go down a long rabbit hole creating Wikidata items for each property value I was added to the citation that didn't already exist, which cascaded to creating more Wikidata items for the property values of the initially created items, and so forth. If this is still the case, then I would be a lot more inclined to update Wikidata if there were a tool to help generate the entire tree of cascaded Wikidata items for me to approve for submission. isaacl (talk) 16:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Continuation
While the initial premise of this thread is challenging. I think it's worth regrouping to deliberate specifically on some other concepts and potentialities vis à vis Wikidata integration others have brought up so far. In particular, I think it's generally agreed that a range of features are potentially viable as long as they're bidirectionally transparent—i.e. Wikipedia users do not have to learn how to use Wikidata or leave Wikipedia in order to pull or update information. We're fairly familiar with this partially being the way short descriptions work, I think? Remsense ‥ 论03:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Wikidata pull en.wiki short descriptions (and other languages?) for its relevant field only when there is no existing one on Wikidata, and similarly en.wiki only shows Wikidata if there is no en.wiki short description (unless that has already been disabled?). Wikidata will also pull coordinates and other items, but I don't know if much of this comes bidirectionally back to en.wiki. CMD (talk) 14:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The other dimension this conversation neglects, is that English Wikipedia editors would have chance to support other language editions, if we maintain interoperability between Wikidata and Wikipedia; with all other language editions of Wikipedia. There are legitimate concerns about interface complexity (for all Wiki projects) and sourcing standards, but let's tackle them instead of carte-blanche rejecting any synergies. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm familiar with our infoboxes using Wikidata. The uses I'm aware of though aren't bidirectionally transparent in the way Remsense mentions, as you very much do have to go into Wikidata to edit them. CMD (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll probably again be accused of "passively disrupting the wiki to make a point"[56], but for anyone who believes that Wikidata has a well-functioning vandal patrol system, here are the 5 random bits of vandalism I bookmarked last week, surprise, none of them have been corrected. They are a varied bunch, from someone creating an unsourced BLP violating article on a non-notable person[57] to someone randomly vandalising some labels[58] (which also affects e.g. Commons), from the obscure but obvious[59] to an editor vandalizing 4 different articles without any problems[60], and ending with a Wikipedia editor with an enwiki article, who died fighting for Ukraine against Russia, being blatantly vandalized and insulted[61]. Fram (talk) 09:47, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To sneak in a very brief aside I meant to post before this spawned a subthread, I do think passive disruption is a bit of a tough sell. Folly Mox (talk) 12:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Putting aside the specifics, would semi-protecting all items used on enwp sufficiently assuage vandalism fears? It would've prevented all of those examples above. It's already the case that high-use items are semi-protected, but I don't really know the culture of semi-protection on Wikidata to predict whether a lower threshold is realistic. Seems worth acknowledging as a possible support condition amid the years-long "it's garbage" vs. "it's useful" debates here. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 12:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we transcluded such content onto Wikidata, the selections of content we actually use would be put under the same, quality countervandal lens that has worked for years. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean "from" Wikidata? Otherwise I don't really understand your comment. And no, in the current system this wouldn't work, vandalism on Wikidata that has an impact here is not detected as quickly as vandalism here (in general, we have vandalism that remains for months or years as well). We can include Wikidata changes in e.g. "recent changes", but then we get things like this included (as "Dm Antón Losada Diéguez (Q3393880); 12:37 . . Estevoaei (talk | contribs) (Created claim: Property:P1344: Q12390563)", which has no bearing on Enwiki at all. Which is typical, most of the Wikidata changes we see are either interwiki links, English descriptions (which we don't display anyway), or things like this which will never be shown here. Fram (talk) 12:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I meant from, sorry. You indeed don't get RC patrolling, but I think the biggest reason WD vandalism doesn't get detected is that it's not prominently displayed. Any vandalism that escapes initial RC patrolling would have little chance of detection unless the vandal has hubris (c.f. anyone who has nuked someone's contributions) or people actually read the article, which they do, and so they fix. If we increase the prominence of such data by actually using it, we will also substantially increase the countervandalism. I hardly see any vandalism on wiki-data we already include on articles. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least some of the examples I gave already impacted e.g. Commons, and no one detected it from there either. When the Wikidata descriptions were displayed on enwiki, vandalism of these descriptions was not significantly or rapidly detected on enwiki and reverted on Wikidata. This RfC discussion from 2017 gives many examples of what goes wrong when enwiki relies on Wikidata for its data, and also gives (near the bottom) examples of prominent Wikidata vandalism lasting for hours and impacting a number of enwiki articles, from during that RfC. It happens all the time. Fram (talk) 18:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commons isn't very prominent.
lasting for hours
So? That's not abnormal for vandalism, even on Wikipedia. The amount of edits nuking reverts means many cases of vandalism probably are still extant. There's this famous boxer I forgot the name of who had his infobox blatantly vandalized with the nickname changed to something like "imbecile"; it only got reverted after four days. Look at special:Diff/1241738467, which shut off the feedback request service for months. Disregarding the easy protection fix, does that mean all RfCs should be run manually? No. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that vandalism moving Romania to Moldavia would last for hours on enwiki. This is not some sneaky vandalism, this is in-your-face vandalism. As for Wikidata vandalism being perpetuated across infoboxes in many languages (and not being spotted or corrected by the people at these languages either), we have now (since more than an hour) an impossible date of birth for Johan Cruijff, one of the best soccer players ever and thus an article of some importance. The Wikidata vandalism is visible in Catalan[62], Asturian[63], Galician[64], "ha"[65], Norwegian[66], Welsh[67], and so on. Using enwiki as a pool of editors to do vandal control on Wikidata (which is what the above proposal would boil down to) doesn't seem to be a productive way forward for enwiki. Fram (talk) 12:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vandalism moving Romania to Moldavia wouldn't last for hours on Wikidata either. Johan's DOB was reverted 7 minutes after your comment, and thus the wrong birthdate only stood for 1 hour and 15 minutes. And no, that's not because of your comment, as the reverter is a frequent RC patroller. We can see that Wikidata does have countervandalism. As for the wikis not spotting it, don't forget that it's a workday in Europe, and don't forget the boxer. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you start denying reality, it's hardly useful to continue this discussion. And no, I don't believe in such coincidences. When I posted the previous 5 bits of vandalism (one week after they occurred), one was deleted 2 hours later[68], and the others reverted a few minutes after my post (and a repeat occurrence only lasted for 3 hours, hurrah I guess[69]?). Meanwhile, an editor makes just one vandalim revert, which just happens to come directly after my post here, but doesn't care about other blatant vandalism like the 18 edits here[70], which again vandalizes Catalan Wikipedia[71] and even Spanish Wikipedia[72]. Less obscure articles? Stromae, the great Belgian singer: preferred image vandalized on Wikidata, so the infobox on e.g. Catalan Wikipedia or Norwegian[73] shows a wrong image for hours (oh right, during working hours, when no one uses Wikipedia...), as does Commons[74]. Never mind that since May, the Norwegian Wikipedia proudly displays at the top of their infobox, thanks to Wikidata: "Gary Lineker Golden Bollocks".[75] Clearly, using Wikidata to propulate your infoboxes is stupid and reckless, and only gives vandals an extra outlet to play around with. Fram (talk) 14:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, vandalism transcluded here will be seen and fixed much quicker meaning that for the exact same amount of effort vandal fighters will be fixing vandalism on multiple languages/projects rather than just one. Thryduulf (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To quote myself from right above: "Using enwiki as a pool of editors to do vandal control on Wikidata (which is what the above proposal would boil down to) doesn't seem to be a productive way forward for enwiki." Wikidata is touted as good for multi-wiki data, some languages fell for this claim, and now enwiki should do the vandal control for them? Everyone here is free to go to Wikidata and do vandal patrolling, no one is stopping you. Some would even argue that if someone like Thryduulf knows that vandalism is affecting Wikidata and other languages Wikipedias, and they make no effort to do any patrolling there, they are actually "passively disrupting" the WMF landscape, no, the knowledge of the world. And as explained above by many editors, no, it's not "for the exact same amount of effort". Never mind e.g. the not yet mentioned issue of duplicated adminning effort, with blocks, protection, ... needed on both sides. Fram (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're just going round in circles by now, so I'm just gonna address your only new claim:
only gives vandals an extra outlet to play around with
No, it removes outlets. Previously, vandals can vandalize an infobox from an article on any edition of Wikipedia. Now, when they vandalize, they have to vandalize all of them at once and get more quickly reverted. Simplified: Previously, vandals have like 80 places to vandalize. Now, they only have like 20. Common sense shows that vandalism seen on the Spanish Wikipedia is reverted quicker than that of the Catalan Wikipedia. Wikidata centralizes information, and thus vandal control can be less duplicated.Since you've been acrimoniously listing vandalism on Wikidata that reflects onto the Catalan edition, why don't you look at this giant list of vandalism on the Catalan WIkipedia instead? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:21, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That math doesn't math. If there is a version of an article on 80 Wikipedias and they all draw their infoboxes from Wikidata, then there are still 80+1 places to potentially vandalize, because there's still the rest of the article - this proposal doesn't get rid of that. A vandal who wants to write "poop" at the top of the article on Catalan Wikipedia can now do so at either Catalan Wikipedia or Wikidata, and someone who wants to prevent vandalism from appearing in that article at Catalan Wikipedia needs to monitor both. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so that's what it means. Fair point. But the information in the infobox is arguably (one of?) the most important part of an article, and the math would math there. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible to think of it as vandal control on the English Wikipedia that also happens to be vandal control on Wikidata and Wikipedia in other languages. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are simple implementations, which may perhaps be needed to be coded at WMF level, that we could implement to monitor cross-wiki vandalism from our watchlists here, which seems to be basically what you're talking about -- any change of a wikidata (or commons etc) transcluded material onto a watchlisted article should result in a notification on that editor's WP watchlist (or similarly implemented tool).
Of course, if for example every citation in an article becomes linked to wikidata (and this is beyond the scope of OP), this is a lot of items to place on a watchlist, but I don't know that it matters since the number of expected changes on WD and Commons items is so small (assuming one can watchlist individual properties and not entire items). But automating the process should not be an issue, and notification cross-wiki is already to some extent doable.
Of course it doesn't address what's brought up previously that WD is f-ing awful to edit, which really is something that can be fixed if editors there acknowledge it. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we can detect the link (starting with web.archive.org), and if it is the internet archive, then the format can be used. The other archives are not used significantly, so this will not impact the process much. Who am I? / Talk to me! / What have I done?12:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an excellent idea. Archive.org does not use yyyymmdd but, for example, 20031224105129. I manually have to insert dashes at the appropriate points 2003-12-24105129 and remove the timestamp so I end up with 2003-12-24. It seems very very likely that a bot is already doing this task, but to be sure you can ask over at Meta or WP:VPT. Polygnotus (talk) 23:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so only the archive URL is needed to fill the citation template. The date can just be filled in automatically
As an idea, I fully support this. I also used to wonder why the heck the template would nag about the missing date when it's available in the URL, and was particularly annoyed by the timestamp mismatch message. However, I've since learned that this is not as easy to implement as it may seem.
{{cite}} templates literally can't add the missing parameter or alter it, because templates can only alter their output (i.e. the displayed HTML), not change the wikitext input. I guess strictly speaking this would be possible with subst:-ing, but forcing everyone to do that with {{cite}} isn't going to fly.
The editor (software) certainly could make this happen automagically, but I'm pretty sure the devs would (understandably) be disinclined to introduce special treatment for specific templates on a specific wiki. Also, while the visual editor could hide the necessary wikitext change behind the scenes, for the source editor this would have to mean auto-correcting the submitted wikitext after the fact, and AFAIK this is currently not done for any reason.
Since {{cite}} is usually placed inside <ref>...</ref>, mw:Extension:Cite could conceivably handle this, but again, good luck convincing the devs.
So, I think "fill in |archive-date= from |archive-url=while the user is editing" is probably going to be a hard sell. There are other considerations, though.
Since a missing or mismatched |archive-date= automatically lands the page in Category:CS1 errors: archive-url, is it necessary to nag editors about it (and, especially, put red error messages in the displayed page)? fixemptyarchive and fixdatemismatch functionality of WP:WAYBACKMEDIC can easily fix these errors, so why not have the bot run more frequently than the current every 2-3 months? Not necessarily with its full functionality, just against this particular category. I don't really see why this couldn't happen daily.
And to put this more radically: is a separate |archive-date= needed at all when its content merely duplicates that of another parameter? Since CS1 Lua code already has some special handling for archive.org, why not just add taking the date from the URL as well? CS1 predates the availability of Lua, so perhaps this was too inconvenient to implement with the old template functionality and requiring editors to always include this parameter was unavoidable. This no longer seems to be the case, though. Archive information doesn't seem to be needed for COinS (which wouldn't be taken directly from wikitext anyway), nor do I know of any other reason to keep it mandatory for archive.org links (or any others that include the date).
I'm very possibly missing something important regarding the status quo, so hopefully people like @Trappist the monk and @GreenC can chime in.
Thanks a lot for refining the proposal. The second consideration makes a lot of sense. Adding an archive URL is always manual, even if you use the automatic tool, so I think it makes sense to remove the parameter and, using Lua, find the date from the URL. Who am I? / Talk to me! / What have I done?14:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I didn't mean to imply it should be cleared more often as things stand right now. What I was trying to say was that if |archive-date= nagging in the editor and on the resulting page were dropped for archive.org, the category would presumably fill somewhat faster, but the bot could still handle it. Gamapamani (talk) 02:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I would like to propose a project regarding photos on infoboxes on articles pertaining to executives and other public figures. I believe there is too much inconsistency on Wikipedia, with photos ranging from official, professional portraits to photos taken of them out in the wild, such as on a stage or during a live stream. To maintain consistency and make Wikipedia articles look more presentable, I would like us to move towards having portraits of said individuals whenever possible to avoid copyright infringement. Most articles of politicians follow this trend; and so, I'd like to broaden this to all public figures, especially those who hold or have held C-level positions. I look forward to everyone's thoughts and please let me know if this type of discussion should be moved elsewhere. MikeM2011 (talk) 21:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you want to do that hasn't already been done. The reason there's so much inconsistency in portraits is that we just don't have enough photographers to take pictures of subjects in public places (or get consent to take pictures of subjects in private places). Aaron Liu (talk) 21:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are many professional portraits available online we could use. I'm not sure why we can't utilize these with proper citations under the fair use agreement. MikeM2011 (talk) 02:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can't because anyone should be able to take a free image of them in a public location, and we can't afford to allow mass uploads and then get sued a ton. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, the rules over non-free content do not allow to use fair use claims on photos of living people, and that policy is way too strong to even consider changing it (I'm not even sure if we can, or if it was decided by the Wikimedia Foundation). That means that, on a lot of things related to images, we don't use or do what we would want, but only what we can with the limited images available to us. I suspect that by "articles of politicians" you mean US politicians, and we have plenty of good images and even portraits because many official sites release their contents under free licenses. But try to write about politicians from elsewhere, and you'll likely have to deal with the same scarcity of good photos of many other topics. Cambalachero (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that requirement is purely local. We created it, and we can change it. But I share you skepticism that we would choose to change it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do. New good articles are eligible to be nominated for DYK. Portals aren't really a design pattern worth comparing to given their lack of popularity, and most good articles frankly aren't worth showcasing more than we already do via DYK. Remsense ‥ 论09:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lowercase or uppercase initials at titles of entries as their true spelling
PROPOSAL: the titles of entries at Wikipedias, to be spelt exactly as they are written in their languages. With lowercase or uppercase initials. This is a proposal for all wikipedias. Every some years, I revisit the subject. Why here: because this is the largest and most infulential wikipedia. The opinion of the most experienced editors could make possible a global change from forced uppercase/capitals as initials at every single entry to the true and correct spelling in its own language.
Would en.wikipedia editors please consider:
No switch to uppercase/capital initial letter without grammatical reason. No violation of the true spelling of words.
If not case sensitive (in unison with the Wiktionaries of the same language), at least case tolerant.
For any spelling at SearchBox both initials (uppercase/capitals and lowercase) would lead to an entry, written correctly:
I know how difficult this project would be: technically (cf WP:Naming conventions#Lowercase first letter, Template:lowercase and many discussions) but mainly, psychologically.
I think, that choosing uppercase/capitals for all entries, at the first days of the design of wikipedias, was a huge mistake. Now, very difficult to correct. But it is never too late to do the correct thing. Thank you for listening, a wiktionarian (inevitably case-sensitive), Sarri.greek (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarri.greek: assuming you mean changing the behaviour of page titles so that they become case sensitive, making e.g. Brown and brown different pages, then I'm not understanding what the benefits of this will be? What has changed now that makes you think the consensuses arrived at in the many previous discussions will be different this time? Thryduulf (talk) 17:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarri.greek: That would be because of technical limitations - article titles that start with a letter must start with it capitalised. {{lowercase title}} can be used to force the first letter of an article title to render lowercase (as at iPhone), but this does not change the actual title of the page in software (IPhone). You cannot be seriously suggesting spamming that template across what is certain to be in the low seven-figures of articles, right? —Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques17:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
M @Jéské Couriano: >>must start with capitalised<< Why? Was that a WMF decision? An English Wikipedia decision? Sorry that I do not understand the technical reasons of this initial approach (or any tech matter) to write the colour 'brown' capitalised, when it is an isolated word (not in a sentence, not a title of a book or essay, but just a word). Thank you. Sarri.greek (talk) 18:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarri.greek: It's a MediaWiki (read: software) decision. You would need to talk to the developers. (Just because the developers are on WMF payroll doesn't mean the WMF made decisions on how to handle article titles, especially since this well predates the WMF's existence.) —Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques18:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am generally of the opinion that the case sensitivity of Wikipedias was a mistake (and largely disagree with that aspect of WP:DIFFCAPS, although I of course follow it). Similar to why all articles start with an uppercase letter, the case sensitivity made some sense if you look at the origin of Wikis in general where they would auto link CamelCase words without additional syntax needed. As Mediawiki no longer does that, the need for a leading capital letter is largely gone. And why it's still there is, I think, the understanding that the effort (programmatically/technically , content updates, and just everyone getting "used" to the changes) wouldn't be worth the squeeze. Although my guess is most of the technical effort would be making the migration as seamless as possible for readers, as Wiktionary already allows (or at least appears to allow to readers and editors alike) actual initial lowercase (but is case sensitive). I haven't researched enough to know exactly what I'd support or oppose. Skynxnex (talk) 18:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As Chaotic Enby suggests, you can't display Wikipedia in any font that isn't on the device you're using. If you open Google Chrome and go into the settings/preferences, there is an item (on my laptop, it's under "Appearance") that says something like "Customize fonts". It should have a drop-down menu that lists all the fonts. If "Ubuntu" isn't in that list, then your device can't display that font. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you can't install it on that device, then you can still use fallback fonts! They're mostly useful if the same page can be viewed from different devices with different sets of fonts installed, and display if the preferred font isn't install.
Theoretically, you can also do @importurl('https://fonts.googleapis.com/css2?family=Ubuntu:ital,wght@0,300;0,400;0,500;0,700;1,300;1,400;1,500;1,700&display=swap'); to download the fonts automatically. However, I don't think that'll work, since MediaWiki:Common.css is the top stylesheet and I'm not sure if the user's stylesheet is loaded individually. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can load fonts from other servers such as the Google font server, or the toolforge proxy for the Google font server, should you choose. Note page referrer info will get sent to the font server whenever the font is loaded (typically it will get cached so it will load infrequently), so some people are wary of doing this. Also note the toolforge mirror isn't recommended for general use. isaacl (talk) 22:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be a very go thing to have this app where people can download or save Wikipedia for offline. This way, those who do not have access to Wi-Fi (Like me), can be able to research and edit things easily. HippieGirl09 (talk) 14:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the Tools tab on the article page. On my system, one of the options is to "Download as PDF". Another option is "Printable version". You can use that to print to a file. Actually, you can download all of the English Wikipedia, but you will need a lot of storage space. However, you will need to perform all edits on line.Donald Albury18:58, 12 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 19:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be a cool feature to be able to view the history of articles which you have viewed in the past on the web version of Wikipedia (I think this might exist on the app version already?). I go through many Wikilink rabbit holes and I’d like to be able to see a list of all the articles which I have read. Is this a conceivable addition to the Wikipedia software? Cleebadee (talk) 21:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest using your browser history (which may mean finding a browser with a conveninent way to search your history). I think many users would feel uncomfortable with our Wikipedia reading history easily available for anyone to access on the Wikipedia server. (The information can of course be determined from web server logs, but that's less convenient for bad actors to take advantage of.) isaacl (talk) 21:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an analogy, my local library uses software that has an option of whether to retain a record of books I have checked out, which is turned off by default. With the default, the record of a book I have checked out is erased when I return the book. That way, if a government agency demands a record of the books I have checked out, and I have left the option set to not retain a record, the library has no information to turn over. Government agencies and other parties cannot optain records that do not exist. BTW, I might be paranoid, but I have earned it. I have copies of two FBI reports about me (via the US Freedom of Information Act), one about 200 pages long and the other 22 pages long. Donald Albury22:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that Wikipedia should allow this as an option? It seems like this would be a good way to make it a thing without forcing people to use it. Maybe it could be a tool which is off by default? Cleebadee (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am saying that one of the considerations on whether to keep a record on what you have looked at on Wikipedia is that if a record exists it can be subpoenaed or hacked. Another consideration is that if such records do not exist, then the Wikimedia Foundation does not have to expend time and money responding to/resisting government requests for access to those records. If I could have a say on whether to have such an option, I would oppose it. I think users deserve the right to read whatever they want to on Wikipedia without worrying about someone looking over their shoulder. We cannot prevent someone from monitoring what a reader looks at from their end, but we can do what we can to preserve privacy within Wikipedia. Donald Albury13:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would having the record available on Wikipedia itself make it easier to hack than it being available indirectly through one’s search engine history? Cleebadee (talk) 14:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like using a hypothetical Wikipedia view history and searching Wikipedia in a search engine history are both easy things for a bad actor to do. So I don’t understand the idea that adding the Wikipedia one would make it easier for bad actors. Is it easier for them to hack into Wikipedia compared to search engines? Cleebadee (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want the data to be synced across devices, you'd need to upload the information to Wikpedia's servers; meanwhile, history is usually not synced by default. It's also additional complexity to the software with very little benefit. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Zotero Connector has this option which you can activate for the wikipedia domain. That is, if you're interested in tracing back your wikipedia history (and of other websites and reading, and of sources for WP editing and general research + writing) beyond simply your browser history, Zotero is a nice thing to have around. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the Wikipedia main page would be more educative and with a section riddles, proverbs, idioms, wise saying. You know, a collection from many languages around, their origins, past meanings, reforms, present meanings, examples of their usage in history (past & present), their literal meanings, word for word rendering in english, etc. I don't know, who has better ideas? Let Wikipedia be a fun place too for visitors and readers to always learn more. I'm looking forward to seeing this by the start of next year and in other language wikis. Any and all contributions are accepted. elias_fdafs (talk) 20:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, one person's "wise saying" is another person's "deepity". I don't think having these on the Main Page, especially in a dedicated section, would actually be very encyclopedic. However, like Folly Mox says, a more general concept of showcasing sister project content (a word etymology, a quote, etc.) could be interesting! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with idioms and proverbs is that, usually, they are regional. They are widely used at some area, but hardly mentioned or even unknown in others. For each user that see such a section and says "oh, that's the origin of that proverb" we'll have several who will say "what, was that a proverb? Never heard about it". Besides, explaining their background is just impossible with the limited text in main page boxes. Perhaps DYK may be a better venue to show those articles in the main page. Cambalachero (talk) 13:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My last period of major editing was in 2017, and at the time the editing interface in the iPad app was pretty barebones, but now the mobile apps have really nice support for basic types of editing. Especially the iPad app, which has a customized interface that isn't quite the same as either the visual or source editors on web. I actually really wish that interface was supported on the iPhone app, that seems to use a less feature full version of the web interface for editing for some reason, but that's besides the point.
I edit about 50% on an iPad, and at those point the app is a better experience than using iPad safari, which has some persistent issues with editing for me. However, it's hard to find information about how to contribute to wikipedia on the iPad app, or to access things like community dashboards/proposals/task lists.
It'd be nice if there was a section of the main screen on the iPad that contained the same links as the "Contribute" section of the menu on the web, or otherwise encouraged and supported new contributors. It would not only support editors like me who just want to get to those things more easily, it might engage current readers who use the iPad app and thus aren't regularly being reminded about chances to contribute on the main screen like the majority of web users are. The iPad app is good enough now that its a really nice editing experience, and I think could work as the the primary interface for new editors. Alternatively, those links could be added to the main menu on the app, which would solve the convenience issue, but not engage/encourage new editors.
I don't know the procedure for changing what shows up on the main screen of the app, or if it's something the community even has influence over. My apologies if this has been brought up already, or there are reasons I don't know about in terms of why this can't work, or I'm discussing it in the wrong place, I just know that mobile editing is less common and less frequently brought up in discussions about supporting new contributors, so as a long time mobile editor I thought it'd be worth mentioning a pathway to better support and encourage mobile editing. penultimate_supper 🚀 (talk) 14:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is Amal Ramadan, Sr. Movement Communications Specialist with the Apps team at the Wikimedia Foundation. Thank you for your thoughtful suggestion and for sharing your editing experience with us. It’s great to hear that you find the iPad app a valuable tool for contributing to Wikipedia!
We appreciate your feedback about adding a 'Contribute' section to the iPad app's main screen or menu. Your suggestion aligns with our goal of improving user engagement and supporting new contributors. We're already working on a navigation refresh for the iOS app, and you can follow the project’s progress here:
I’ve added your suggestions to the ticket to ensure the team considers them during the iPad enhancements.
In the meantime, if you encounter any further issues or have additional suggestions, feel free to reach out through the support email within the app or ping me at any time.
Thank you! And thank you for your work, the apps are such great experiences, honestly my favorite reading experience of the encyclopedia, and a really solid way to edit. Appreciate all the work you do! penultimate_supper 🚀 (talk) 17:32, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Limited Blackout of Wikipedia in the UK
Overview: This proposal suggests a partial blackout of Wikipedia for users accessing the site from the UK, implemented as a temporary measure to highlight concerns regarding the Online Safety Act 2023. The act requires services to adopt verification or estimation technologies and stricter measures for managing harmful but legal content, especially content accessible to children, with full enforcement expected by OFCOM in 2026.
Why Consider a Blackout? Wikipedia's first pillar is that it is an online encyclopedia with an educational mission. As such, a blackout, even when intended to educate the public about potentially harmful legislation, should only be used in the most serious of circumstances. It must be executed thoughtfully to align with our mission and to avoid damaging our credibility and reputation as a reliable educational resource.
Details of the Proposed Blackout:
Nag Page Implementation: The blackout will not be a complete shutdown but instead will present a "nag page" when UK users attempt to access Wikipedia. This nag page will:
Display information about the Online Safety Act 2023 and its potential implications for free access to information.
Collect user information (such as location) to show the scale of concern, but importantly, this data will not be processed or used further, respecting user privacy.
Provide an option for users to continue to the encyclopedia content after viewing the information, ensuring they still have access if desired.
No Set Date: This proposal does not yet suggest a fixed implementation date. It aims to gather community feedback and observe OFCOM's actions as it defines the specific requirements of the act leading up to 2026.
Rationale: Wikipedia’s mission to provide free, reliable information could be significantly impacted if stringent and potentially restrictive measures are enforced without careful consideration. By adopting a limited blackout (nag page) approach, we raise public awareness while ensuring minimal disruption to access. Such a move would emphasize our role as an advocate for open knowledge and user rights while balancing our educational objectives.
Consensus Requirement: Given the potential impact on Wikipedia’s reputation and mission, this proposal seeks to engage the widest consensus possible before any action is taken. A blackout must remain an exceptional tool reserved for critical issues to ensure that it retains its effectiveness and credibility.
Comments and Feedback Welcome: Please share your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions to refine this proposal. We aim to ensure that any action taken is well-considered, aligns with our educational mission, and maximizes the positive impact for both Wikipedia and its users.
With all due respect, what do you mean "our"? This is your first edit. If this is an alternate account, sock puppets are not allowed to participate in project space, so if you have a primary account, please log into that instead. SeraphimbladeTalk to me23:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah this is my first edit I do kind of mean hour my bad. Even though I haven't edited anything directly I have made suggestions under
sorry about these of AI it was just using as a helpful tool to get my ideas together and formatted well I've got this severe dyslexia and it's a lifesaver sometimes. However I have read for everything and I stand by what it says I wouldn't be editing Wikipedia articles with using AI like this 2A00:23C6:C780:4901:D52A:AFC2:3B4C:1F47 (talk) 05:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, don't edit Wikipedia like that, especially if you're making a major proposal. If you have a disability, just say so, like you did. No one would ever fault you for that, but we'd want to hear what you, not a bot, have to say. SeraphimbladeTalk to me08:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the sentiment behind that remark, but the problem is that there are some people around who would fault people who have a disability, even though there is nothing they can do about it. Such people may be a small minority, but most disabled people have come into contact with some, especially on the Internet. That makes us a bit wary. Oh, and I'm totally against all blackouts - nobody should presume to speak for everyone else. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't sound like an actual blackout. This sounds like a request for a (large) sitebanner.
Warning when transcluding images of a certain size or higher
Since this happened to me on accident yesterday, why not bring it here. When you add an image to an article (specifically using source code), you may be unaware of how large that image will be when you click "publish". That's why I'm suggesting that when adding images of a certain size (let's say... 7,000 x 7,000 px or higher), before you are able to publish it will give you a warning that you are uploading images of a size that may not load properly on certain devices, so that you can maybe go back and either change the image, or something else. This diff is a really good example of why this may be needed. SirMemeGod15:59, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why that particular image might cause a problem, but how many others would? Do we have figures for how many images would trigger such a warning? These are genuine, not rhetorical, questions. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure, but I could assume that any image over a certain size could start crashing browsers, like the one I linked. I just need to find out what that size is. SirMemeGod16:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sir MemeGod: I don't see why you would want to put the full-size image into an article. You should use the |thumb parameter, and if people want to see a bigger version, they click the thumb image to reach the file description page, which not only shows a larger version, it also offers a selection of sizes to view. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has a problem with inactive WikiProjects
Hundreds of the over 2000 WikiProjects present on Wikipedia are either inactive or semi-active. Many WikiProjects overlap in scope, or are so niche that very few users have interest in participating. Even for WikiProjects that cast a wide net, some are inactive or semi-active. Historically speaking, WikiProjects were more active when Wikipedia was much younger, and we've seen more WikiProjects become inactive or semi-active.
Why is this a problem?
Having inactive/semi-active WikiProjects that overlap in scope or are incredibly niche causes confusion for editors who seek to collaborate on a topic, or seek help from others familiar with the topic. Additionally, inactive WikiProjects take up valuable shortcut real estate, shortcuts which could be used for other WikiProjects or policies.
An idea for a solution
This is where I'd like the community's feedback. It is unclear whether the outright deletion of WikiProjects is ideal, or if smaller WikiProjects should be merged into larger ones. It's also unclear if a singular solution can be applied to all cases of inactive WikiProjects.
Merging into subprojects/task forces could definitely be an idea – that way, we can keep the established structure while consolidating it into something easier to follow. Regarding members of the merged WikiProjects, should they automatically be added to the wider one, or just given an alert so they can choose whether to join it or not? The second option seems more natural to me.There is also the broader question of why WikiProject activity is declining. I am far from a specialist on this topic, and wonder if specific things changed that made joining WikiProjects less practical or less useful than it was before? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well the proposed parent project participants should decide whether to merge in the niche projects, if the project is completely inactive. At the top of the moribund project page, it could refer people to the relevant active project. And talk page project tagging for dead projects could be removed, or replaced by the parent project. I would say just alert former participants that are not part of the parent already. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People who are active on pages don't own them. It's a courtesy to invite them to the discussion, but I don't believe they should get any more say than anyone else. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:32, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A WP:WikiProject is not pages. A WikiProject is people. You can no more vote to make editors join a different group than you could tell your classmates who they were required to be friends with when you were all 10 years old.
The reason merges have to be voluntary is because that's the only way they work. We can merge, redirect, and move pages all day long, but if the individual participants don't voluntarily choose to participate in the new "larger" group, then we won't actually have a larger group: we'll have a bunch of people quitting.
I heard a joke about Church splitting (I didn't expect that to be a red link) many years ago that went like this: The church had a fight over whether the new hymnal books were to have a red cover or a blue cover. In the end, 10% of them split off to form a church with red books, 10% formed a church with blue books, and 80% of them got so disgusted that they quit going to church. Maybe this only seems like a plausible outcome if you're from the South, but we don't want any WikiProject participants to get so disgusted that they quit Wikipedia, or even just quit watching the WikiProject pages.
Consequently, we've established a procedure for voluntary merges. Basically, you make an offer and wait a month to see whether anyone objects. If anyone objects, then stop. If they don't, then merge. I'd guess that we've had objections about 10% of the time, so it rarely interferes with the ultimate outcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the reason why there are so many inactive Wikiprojects around is simply that nobody has bothered to do anything about them. I certainly, and probably most other editors, see that as a pretty low priority. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've merged a few projects I participated in due to scope overlap, including two recently, it's not even that hard to get consensus, but no one wants to bother. If there's a specific project that bothers you just propose it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should get back to that page. @Joe Roe was working on a merge, and we need more template information. The TFD folks have suggested that they'll be generous with their template-replacing bots, but we need to write out a procedure for it, so people know what to do.
@Sink Cat, please consider putting Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council on your watchlist. That's where a lot of this gets discussed. In terms of the general concept, I think we should aim for a world in which there are many fewer, but much larger (on average) active WikiProjects, but the whole thing happens one baby step at a time. The biggest challenge is that nobody is doing the work. Just reviewing 2,000 groups to produce a recommendation about how to merge them could be a full-time job for a month, and then each group has to be contacted with personalized messages to explain the idea, name the targets, and ask if they're willing. If someone wants to spend, say, 20 hours/week for the next year doing this, then that would be great, but that's the scale we're talking about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure to whom you are referring when you say "them"? Note the word "council" is a bit misleading: it's just essentially the WikiProject wikiproject. isaacl (talk) 05:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Echoing this – it's possible to get consensus for merges but it's really time consuming and slow. I know I've got a few outstanding because you have to wait 30 days after opening a discussion to action it (sensibly enough) and I'll often find that 30 days later I don't really have time to do it. – Joe (talk) 08:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
filter for removing closing markdown of comments?
By chance while doing some other work on pre 2006 pages, I noticed Bernard Lee, which, due to an IP editor, looked like a stub, despite being listed as a GA. I'm not really sure what the intention of their edit was but they removed part of the comment markdown, causing most of the article to be hidden. Is there some way of tagging instances of this happening via Edit filter or such? I could imagine someone maybe more malicious intentionally doing this that would otherwise probably just blank the page or remove large parts, which is already more or less mitigated by current measures. Akaibu (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there are two separate things here - an edit filter to detect new edits that result in an unclosed HTML comment. I don't know whether one exists, but Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested is the place to request this if it doesn't.
In both cases a correctly closed comment after an unclosed one could cause false negatives, but I guess detecting <!-- […] <!-- […] --> would catch those? Thryduulf (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have an idea of building an open source ai model trained on wikipedia available free of charge on wikipedia platform as new generations have less attention span and need to get things done fast. I want it open source so that it can be for the community and get inspired by contributors Yassinsamirhegazy (talk) 13:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, the contents of Wikipedia are CC BY-SA 4.0, so you can use the corpus to train an AI model if you wish to, assuming you release it under a compatible license. Regarding having it available on Wikipedia, this might not necessarily be a good idea, as AI models are prone to hallucinations, and a model trained on Wikipedia contents at a given time will not be editable like the encyclopedia itself. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 13:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please be aware that many Wikipedians more or less distrust AI, and some have been advocating for a ban on any use of AI in Wikipedia. While I consider a ban to be unenforceable, I would want editors to avoid using any AI without very carefully checking and correcting all output from the AI, which might well be more work than just writing content without using an AI. Donald Albury14:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
88, do you allow tracking cookies from wikipedia.org in your browser? If not, the site won't remember that you've dismissed the banner already. Another option is to create an account (it's free and a single step; doesn't even require email confirmation), which will allow you to hide donation banners. Folly Mox (talk) 11:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin September Issue 1
Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the first half of September 2024. Please help Translate.
Upcoming and current events and conversationsTalking: 2024 continues
Join Wiki Loves Onam, a photo campaign dedicated to documenting the vibrant and colorful festival of Onam on Wikimedia Commons. The campaign runs until September 30.
The Alternative Text suggested edits feature has now been fully deployed to production on the iOS App for Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, and French Wikipedias! This feature, part of WE1.2, is designed to enhance how newcomers add alt text to images, aiming to improve accessibility and engagement. For more details, visit the project page and explore the new feature in the app!
Editors and volunteer developers interested in data visualization can now test the new software for charts. Its early version is available on beta Commons and beta Wikipedia. This is an important milestone before making charts available on regular wikis. You can read more about this project update and help test the charts.
A new draft text of a policy discussing the use of Wikimedia’s APIs has been published on Meta-Wiki. The draft text does not reflect a change in policy around the APIs; instead, it is an attempt to codify existing API rules. Comments, questions, and suggestions are welcome on the proposed update’s talk page until September 13 or until those discussions have concluded.
See the new members of the U4C following the results of the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) special election, a new decision making group that will enforce the UCoC in specific circumstances.
The Language and Product Localisation team is hosting two office hours to discuss this year's plans and gather feedback from event organizers. The first session is October 5 at 16:00 UTC (Europe-Africa-Americas friendly), and the second is on October 6 at 03:00 UTC (Asia-Pacific friendly).
MediaWiki Product Insights: The latest edition includes details about: research about hook handlers to help simplify development, research about performance improvements, work to improve the REST API for end-users, and more.
Hi @Horse Eye's Back, thanks for flagging this. To clarify, the way this tool works requires the user (must be logged in and autoconfirmed on English Wikipedia) to manually select a snippet of text in a source (in this case, a Reuters article) to check against Wikipedia. That text snipped itself is not modified in any wayby the tool (it's not even possible for the user to modify it once they've elected to look it up on Wikipedia via this tool). So I suspect what happened here is actually that the source itself (i.e., the Reuters article) was edited by Reuters after this user found the claim and sent it as a suggestion to the talk page via the tool. There appears to be an "updated a day ago" message at the top of the article, indicating that this may be the case. So I think the user of this tool unintentionally caught some possibly-fishy information that Reuters itself was putting out there and then walking back... Maryana Pinchuk (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple Court Reporting Portals — including Live Law and Bar&Bench — report that WMF's lawyer was willing to provide details about the "authors" of the ANI article but in a "sealed cover". But the Court didn't accede to such a compromise and wanted it to be filed in public.
Raises a number of questions... Most importantly what is meant by subscriber information? Most of us edit pseudo-anonymously after all and the Foundation doesn't have our names, birth dates, etc and technical info like IP can tell you what device the edits are being made from but not who is making the edits. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh — IP address is considered as PII (though it doesn't disclose device details; are you confusing with user-agent?)? For example, if the address is from an Indian ISP, the Court will compel it to give up the name of the person the IP address was assigned to, during the timeframe of the edits.
Now, I do not know for how long Indian ISPs retain their IP assignment logs. For a comparison, in most European states, it's about 6-12 months. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah theres a few different bits of technical info, but none actually tell you the author unless I'm missing something. So how does WMF know who the author is? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All major ISPs in India require their subscribers to produce personal details like Aadhaar at inception. All ISPs are "intermediaries" and are bound by Indian IT Act. So WMF's disclosure of IP addresses is all that the Indian authorities would need to personally identify editors if they are based in India. Read [76] for further info. — hako9 (talk) 17:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question isn't how the court could figure out the name from the technical details and a subsequent investigation... The question is how the WMF has a name. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't need to even if they wanted to. Disclosing IP would be as good as disclosing the name in India. How do you not get this? — hako9 (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lawyer probably misspoke because admins do not have the NDA requirement like checkuser/oversighters. The Indian judge/lawyer also seem to have misspoken when they said 3 admins. I think they meant editors. — hako9 (talk) 18:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Names" is an imprecise substitute for "Identifying Information". How do you not get this?
These are fragments from an oral argumentation in a court before ~60 y. judges who, going by the literature on Indian Courts, are usually not very technically adept. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know where you are going ahead with this — conspiracy theory territory where WMF has somehow managed to access our IRL Identities / WMF's lawyer being either incompetent or taking the Court for a ride / .. — but this is my last comment on this topic. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are blowing this out of proportion, there are a large number of scenarios in which the WMF might be privy to the IRL identity of an editor. I don't think that it hurts to get clarity on the issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ANI had asked for details of three "administrators" — do note that their usage of administrator might be lax and not correspond to what we understand as admins; publicly available court records do not mention the names of these three entities — who supposedly inserted and restored defamatory content in the article, from Wikimedia. These are the "authors" referred to, by WMF's lawyer. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. But, because of a couple of roles I have filled over the years (OTRS and ARBCOM), I have had to provide WMF with identifying information. The WMF has at least the same access to editor information as do checkusers. If you put your mind to it, you can make it difficult for anyone to identify you, but most editors leave breadcrumbs, and some of us have left a lot. Donald Albury20:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cabayi and Doug Weller, identifying to the WMF did used to require sending them a copy of some ID but that has since changed and you no longer do. I don't remember exactly when it changed but it was after December 2014 when I was elected to the Arbitration Committee, it's possible it coincided with the introduction of the current Wikimedia Foundation Access to Nonpublic Personal Data Policy in November 2018. My recollection is that the copies of the ID were retained only long enough to verify you were who you claimed to be and were then destroyed. Thryduulf (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what I know of WMF and Wikimedia culture, I would not expect WMF to disclose any private information about an individual editor to a foreign court. WMF has a history of sticking to open source values in foreign courts even if it means being blocked for years by that nation's ISPs. I think this would be a great opportunity for someone at WMF to clarify what exactly is being disclosed to the Indian courts about our editors. If nothing private like IP addresses were disclosed, this would be an excellent time to set the record straight. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Novem Linguae I agree about the culture of WMF. But given that Wikimedia retains no private data except IP addresses and UAs (correct me if I am wrong on this point), I do not see what else their lawyer could have been willing to provide only under "sealed cover". And I support the call for WMF to clarify on these issues. TrangaBellam (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I am wrong, but twitter/X warns their users before disclosing their IPs on orders of a foreign/local court, when they receive and comply with takedown requests like some mentioned here [77]. If the counsel for WMF has no qualms about throwing wikipedia editors under the bus should push come to shove, shouldn't wmf warn the specific users whose IPs they are willing to disclose? — hako9 (talk) 14:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine that WMF would have to disclose personally identifiable information (PII) in USA lawsuits since WMF is based in USA. My hypothesis is that WMF would not disclose PII to foreign courts. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, notwithstanding the fact that WMF's lawyer did broach a "sealed cover" approach, WMF appealed the order — this time, being represented by a different lawyer — petitioning that the Court must find the accusation of defamation to be prima facie true before ordering disclosure. However, the appeal was not granted and additionally, WMF was asked to take down the page(s) on the litigation. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is the same lawyer, Akhil Sibal, representing WMF in the main case as well as the appeal. The appeal was a bit pointless. See below. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of the case at this point is that it is at "ground 0", meaning it hasn't taken off. ANI wants to sue somebody for defamation, it doesn't know who. It can't sue WMF because, under the Indian law, WMF is just an "intermediary", equivalent to a television cable company that just trasmits signals. The people that can be sued are the authors of the content, of which there are probably many. Somehow or the other, ANI narrowed down to three editors who, it believes, can be held liable for defamation. So it is weighing in on WMF to reveal their identities. The court, quite reasonably, agrees that it needs to be done. Unless they appear in court and plead, the case doesn't even begin. So, when the WMF lawyer says, I will provide the information in a "sealed cover", I think he doesn't undrestand what is going on (in fact "clueless" would be more accurate). There are only two ways out. Either WMF reveals the identities of the editors so that they can appear in court and plead. Or, WMF waives its status as an "intermediary", and pleads on their behalf. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"There are only two ways out." the WMF can also just close their offices in India and tell the court to pound sand. There is no need to operate in India, its not like there are profits to be made. If they block wikipedia they block wikipedia, we get blocked all the time. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:36, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WMF has told us the information is in the US, that they will only release under U.S. law, and told us what those laws are under which a foreign tribunal could get their hands on the information. I hope WMF thinks the court is already pounding sand. fiveby(zero) 16:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your analysis is missing the WMF's argument that the court must first make a prima facie determination as to whether the content was defamatory before it orders the WMF to turn over identifying information they have on editors. That determination really can't be made, when the Wikipedia content is (1) true, and (2) simply a summary of public facts already published elsewhere. Levivich (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Judge Chawla did make some remarks in the initial stages, which sounded like he made that determination. But to contest that, WMF would have had to plead, which it has refused to do, claiming itself to be an "intermediary". Recall again an "intermediary" is like a cable company that just transmits signals. Twitter has tried to do something like that a year ago, to contest the blocks the government was ordering. It lost. The judge said that it had no locus standi because it was just an "intermediary". The only people that could contest the blocks would be the authors of the content. If I was WMF I would have filed a motion to dismiss, on the grounds that Wikipedia just summarises what the reliable sources say. So the people that can be held to be liable are the authors of those sources, not Wikipedia. But that point has not been brought up in front of the court yet. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One of the articles hyperlinked to ANI’s page is of The Caravan. When Wikipedia argued that the publication had not been made party to the case, the Court called it a convenient answer:
An article published by say X magazine which is read by a hundred people, you don’t bother about it…it does not have the gravitas that it deserves a suit of defamation. If it comes to Wikipedia, it is not going to have a viewership of hundred, it may have it in millions and then it becomes a cause of disturbance.
Yeah, I noticed. This is probably part of what transpired in the 20th August hearing, which I was asking about a while ago. It did not get reported in the press at that time. The WMF lawyer gives me the impression of trying to bargain with the judge(s) rather than to assert our rights forcefully on legal grounds. My disappointment continues. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of our fundamental msision is to bring to the public, knowledge that might be known only to a select few. We cannot be faulted for doing this. We are not producing our own knowledge here, only collating it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but at least for me, there is a difference between "knowledge that might be known only to a select few" and "pushing fringe sources, limited to a selected few (for good reasons), as authoritative to defame someone or something, thereby promoting the fringe source in the process." This issue is not just limited to ANI, but practically applies to all Indian media news channels that do not bash the incumbent government day and night, using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News. Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? Please do a quick check regarding this if you don't believe me. It's not just about ANI. When someone starts using these sources as authoritative to defame something or someone, it becomes difficult to determine who is at fault—the source, the people pushing those sources, Wikipedia itself, the Wikipedia community that allows this, or the person who feels they are being defamed because they are trying to censor "free speech." The thing is, no discussion will result in anything unless all parties are determined that they are right and the other is wrong. Let's just leave this to the court. My comments on this issue end here. DangalOh (talk) 15:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? This would likely be a content-related discussion if it arises, and should be held on the article's talk page or at WP:RSN if it warrants an input from the wider community. – robertsky (talk) 15:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News Wikipedia has WP:RSN, where the editor community decides collectively whether a source is reliable or not. You can start a discussion on a source there, if you wish to. — hako9 (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I was WMF I would have filed a motion to dismiss, on the grounds that Wikipedia just summarises what the reliable sources say There's no motion to dismiss like the US, in India. Cause of action and merit is decided in the pre-admission stage. — hako9 (talk) 15:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quashing in a criminal defamation case is a difficult prospect. This is because – to simplify – under Section 499 of the IPC, a prima facie offence of defamation is made out with the existence of a defamatory imputation, which has been made with the intention or knowledge that it will cause harm. This is, evidently, a very low threshold.
Section 499 also contains a set of exceptions to the rule (such as statements that are true and in the public interest, statements made in good faith about public questions, and so on) – but here’s the rub: these exceptions only kick in at the stage of trial, by which time the legal process has (in all likelihood) dragged on for years. What we essentially have, therefore, is one of those situations where the cost of censorship is low (instituting prima facie credible criminal proceedings), but the cost of speech is high (a tedious, time-consuming, and expensive trial, with the possibility of imprisonment).
I, Kabir Darshan Singh Choudhary, am a Senior Counsel at the Wikimedia Foundation’s Legal Department. The Foundation is in receipt of your message(s) regarding the developments in India around a defamation suit filed by ANI.
We are currently reviewing the recent order of the Hon’ble Delhi High Court and will take all necessary actions, in accordance with applicable laws, to ensure that the people of India continue to have the right to share and access free and reliable knowledge in an open and safe online environment. The Wikimedia Foundation is committed to safeguarding the rights of Wikimedia community members and preserving uninterrupted access to Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects in India. As a standard practice, we do not share specific details of ongoing legal cases that are sub-judice.
Additionally, since this is an active legal case, we recommend caution while sharing, discussing, or speculating on the topic. Please contact ca@wikimedia.org for any trust and safety concerns. Also, please direct any press inquiries you receive to pr@wikimedia.org.
Do we have to rewrite WP:NOTCENSORED now? Currently it reads "Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia's policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and using a neutral point of view) or the law of the United States (where Wikipedia is hosted)." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, I think IAR is about community conduct as well. OA goes beyond that, but can include stuff (like in this case) that can appear like censorship. So I think NOTCENSORED could include something like "For X actions, see WP:OA." Or "or the law of the United States" could have the addition "... and in some cases, other countries." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IAR does not apply, as this action does not improve or maintain Wikipedia (unless, arguably, it is a good-faith attempt to preemptively maintain India's access to Wikipedia). Randy Kryn (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The relevant meta-policy is not IAR but WP:CONEXCEPT. NOTCENSORED exists as a matter of editorial consensus, and the WMF is exempt from that. Whether this was a good use of that exemption is something we'll probably only be able to say some time after the dust has settled. For now, histrionic responses (not like yours, GGS, but some others') help nothing and may risk making things harder for the WMF (and thus all of us), given that the court does not seem to recognize much distinction between the WMF and Wikipedia editors. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 07:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's really unhelpful at this juncture to characterize matters in this way: this is part of a live legal dispute, and it's pretty clear to me that the WMF's strategy is in service of getting content back up. They're taking what they see to be the least obstructive means—the least censored means possible frankly. I'll put it like this: if all of Wikipedia got censored in the largest country in the world on the pretext of WMF violating this order at this stage—I would hold them partially but meaningfully responsible for that because they fell for easy bait and handed them that pretext. It would be a tremendous fuckup. Remsense ‥ 论09:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess they were lying about this then? The Wikipedia database is stored on servers in the United States of America, and is maintained in reference to the protections afforded under local and federal law. I thought i knew what those protections were, and must have misread some of the claims made about Wikipedia. fiveby(zero) 05:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can the WMF office engage with us here and provide additional details?
I would like to know what our options our. For example, we’ve accepted being blocked in various countries before - why isn’t that outcome acceptable here? BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but it would be good if the WMF could be clear to the community about what penalties the court threatened, and which of those penalties the WMF believes the court could enforce.
If the only realistically enforceable penalty is blocking, then I think that is a decision that should be devolved to the community and let us decide whether we want to go down the slope of deferring to censorship, or if we wish to continue rejecting it. BilledMammal (talk) 06:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Obviously it's not blocked everywhere, as I'm making this edit (from the United States) without applying any kind of anti-circumvention measures. Do you have some evidence to support that hyperbolic claim? * Pppery *it has begun...06:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they’re saying the because the WMF has removed the page in response to this lawsuit, there is a global partial block on Wikipedia.
It’s a reasonable perspective, in my view, and asks the question of how much are we willing to let Indian courts control the content that our global audience views. BilledMammal (talk) 06:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no one is worried about youPppery, except in a hope you are well and having a nice evening way. Now i see in the X thread below more talk of releasing info under sealed order. This is baffling unless employee(s) there are truly in danger. How many more of these will there be now that everyone knows it works? fiveby(zero) 06:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
not the first time the High Court has ordered an online platform..., as far as i am aware this is a first for WP, which they told us they wouldn't, but much more importantly told editors in India they would not. fiveby(zero) 07:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd think at least one part of it is the short deadline given (especially given Levivich's quote of the applicable policy). For something easily reversible like hiding the article, it's more practical to temporarily accept the legal orders and then arguing it's invalid after. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If an applicable legal order requires changes to on-wiki content, we will only make direct changes via office action if there is a legal deadline and local process is unavailable or unable to respond in line with the legal requirement in time. In the event that we make a change via office action, we will provide an update to the local community after the change explaining the reason.
Today's hearing can be followed here. tl;dr : WMF's lawyer is willing to disclose the sought details in a sealed cover but wants the Court to make a finding on defamation before that and is wary about precedent. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The final sentence in the court order uploaded by WMFOffice at foundation:File:October 16 2024 ANI v Wikimedia order.pdf gives me pause: "this Court directs Wikimedia Foundation Inc.– the appellant herein to take down/delete the said pages and discussion with regard to the observations made by this Court within thirty six (36) hours" (emphasis mine). I do hope the "discussion" refers to the article's talk page, and not this and any other related discussions. DatGuyTalkContribs13:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be beneficial to have a clear list of questions for the WMF to provide answers to. As an initial draft:
The Indian Courts are demanding that the WMF disclose the identity of three or four editors, and according to recent media reports to WMF is willing to do so.
Are these reports accurate?
If they are accurate:
What types of PII would the WMF be disclosing?
Have the editors involved been informed that the Indian Courts are seeking their PII, and that the WMF is willing to disclose it?
What would be the consequences of not disclosing this PII, including:
What sanctions have the Indian courts threatened to impose?
How realistic is it that the Indian courts can enforce these sanctions?
What would have been the consequences of not taking down this page, including:
What sanctions have the Indian courts threatened to impose?
How realistic is it that the Indian courts can enforce these sanctions?
Why did the WMF diverge from its standard policy of refusing to comply with these requests, such as in Turkey and France?
Are there any additional questions that the community wishes to get an answer to, or changes to these questions, before I start badgering the WMF to get answers to them? BilledMammal (talk) 07:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like as a community that we take time to make careful and thoughtful considerations about this, which may involve not badgering the WMF for immediate details on a live court case where they are already handling apparently quite serious contempt of court allegations. CMD (talk) 07:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict × 2) Without details we don’t have the information needed to make careful and thoughtful considerations. Once we have the details, we can consider them and decide if, as a community, we endorse or reject the WMF’s stance. In particular, I’m very concerned about the WMF being willing to disclose PII in cases like this, and I would like the community to have the chance to determine a position on that decision prior to the PII being disclosed. BilledMammal (talk) 07:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think "Ongoing lawsuit, no comment for now" is likely to be the response if any for now, but we'll see. A known Wikipedian said this [80] regarding the ANI-case in early September. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The questions about sanctions are not based in reality. No one knows what the outcome of a court case might entail until long after the verdict, and no one has any idea about enforcement apart from a few obvious platitudes about due process. Fortunately, the WMF lawyers are smart enough to not make a public statement about on ongoing case (apart, perhaps, from a few obvious platitudes). The WMF's actions might be a little late, but they look like the first step in protecting identities to me. Johnuniq (talk) 07:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The questions about sanctions are not based in reality. No one knows what the outcome of a court case might entail until long after the verdict, and no one has any idea about enforcement apart from a few obvious platitudes about due process.
I think the WMF would at least have an idea of what sanctions would be imposed, as well as which sanctions can be enforced on an entity based in America, but I’m not an expert and could easily be wrong on this.
The WMF's actions might be a little late, but they look like the first step in protecting identities to me.
Given the WMF is willing to disclose those identities, I don’t see how this is the first step in doing so. Given past actions and focuses, I’m wondering if they are more concerned with protecting the WMF’s Indian revenue stream than editors identities or our core mission. BilledMammal (talk) 07:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are unlikely to ever see a public statement from either side regarding this case except for something released by a public relations department with legal vetting. I doubt there is any reliable information about the WMF's intentions but we can see some action: the article and talk page have been deleted and all edits, edit summaries, and user names have been suppressed. Johnuniq (talk) 07:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given our track record over a great many years, that's an odd thing to wonder. But for the avoidance of doubt: no one at the WMF, no board member, no one at all as far as I know, has brought up the question of "protecting the WMF's Indian revenue stream" - because it isn't in any way a concern that is motivating anyone. I think you already had all the information you needed in order to come to that conclusion, before you started the speculation. Please don't do that, it's not the right way to AGF, ok?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In recent years, the WMF has behaved problematically in regards to its revenue stream and the use of that revenue, and one of the areas it is attempting to increase revenue from is India. Given this, and the unusual behavior we are seeing here, I think some "wondering" was appropriate at the time - the WMF needs to earn back trust in the area of revenue, it can't expect it. BilledMammal (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Literally none of that resonates with anyone who has been aware of the facts, so let me just repeat it - no one on staff or on the board has raised or mentioned or discussed in any way any question about revenue in the context of fighting for editor privacy and freedom of expression. It's literally not true, not even close to true. That's really about all there is to say about it. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like one of those questions is more important than the others, and so it might make sense to just focus on that: "is WMF going to divulge any personal information (emails, IPs, etc.) about the three editors accused of defamation, under sealed cover or otherwise?" –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It is unfortunate that WMF is being submissive a wannabe authoritarian regime that is known for jailing people even for the most trivial things.[81]Raymond3023 (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It raises a good question of whether the WMF is making some sort of determination that some court systems are legitimate and others not... I would note that almost all of the North Korea and China related editing I do could now in theory be undone by defamation orders from the courts in those countries. The very idea that Taiwan isn't part of China is after all offensive to the "Chinese nation" same for the idea that Kim Jong-Un is a human rights abuser. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is of course true that in any situation, any rational and thoughtful defender of human rights will take into account various factors about the legitimacy of court systems and about the likely result of various courses of action. Again speaking only for myself, I think it should be fairly obvious to anyone who is thinking thoughtfully about how to fight would realize that doing anything in order to comply with courts in, per your example North Korea, would be pointless and hopeless. There would be no question of "we need to respect sub judice so that we can fight the real fight which is about user privacy and freedom of expression" because North Korean courts have zero chance of acting independently. If the WMF told me "we need to take down this page for now, so that we can preserve our ability to fight for the principles we believe in" in North Korea, I'd be totally unpersuaded. Nothing would change the outcome there, as it wouldn't be a real process.
If the WMF said "we need to take this page down because it offends the sensibilities of the 'Indian nation'" I'd be similarly unimpressed, as I'm sure you would be as well. So, again, don't worry - serious people, acting on top level advice from top people, are fighting the fight in a smart way for the principles that we believe in. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that WMF's legal team is advising they definitely not come in here and officially explain the action to us all. This is breaking news, and there's no particular reason Wikipedia itself needs to have this article live right now. No deadlines, we'll finish writing it after the case is settled. Valereee (talk) 09:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment from Jimbo Wales
Hi everyone, I spoke to the team at the WMF yesterday afternoon in a quick meeting of the board. Although I've been around Internet legal issues for a long time, it's important to note that I am not a lawyer and that I am not here speaking for the WMF nor the board as a whole. I'm speaking personally as a Wikipedian. As you might expect, it's pretty limited as to what people are able to say at this point, and unwise to give too many details. However, I can tell you that I went into the call initially very skeptical of the idea of even temporarily taking down this page and I was persuaded very quickly by a single fact that changed my mind: if we did not comply with this order, we would lose the possibility to appeal and the consequences would be dire in terms of achieving our ultimate goals here.
For those who are concerned that this is somehow the WMF giving in on the principles that we all hold so dear, don't worry. I heard from the WMF quite strong moral and legal support for doing the right thing here - and that includes going through the process in the right way.
Prior to the call, I thought that the consequence would just be a block of Wikipedia by the Indian government. While that's never a good thing, it's always been something we're prepared to accept in order to stand for freedom of expression. We were blocked in Turkey for 3 years or so, and fought all the way to the Supreme Court and won. Nothing has chnaged about our principles. The difference in this case is that the short term legal requirements in order to not wreck the long term chance of victory made this a necessary step.
My understanding is that the WMF has consulted with fellow traveler human rights and freedom of expression groups who have supported that we should do everything we can to win this battle for the long run, as opposed to petulantly refusing to do something today.
I hope these words are reassuring to those who may have had some concerns!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree on a top-line level with the sentiment in the penultimate sentence regarding long term benefit vs short term benefit, my concern would be: is this likely to happen again? We saw with the squabble with the Supreme Court only a few weeks ago regading a victim's name of a crime, now this in the same jurisdiction. Are we setting ourselves up for failure here by showing that we will repeatedly acquiesce to demands—that conflict with our values and mission—from Indian courts that we wouldn't accept from any other jurisdiction outside the US? Daniel (talk) 09:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a lawyer either, but I'm fairly sure wisdom I've heard from lawyers talking about analogous disputes has some purchase here: one has to play ball to some degree. If the WMF throws up their hands, says the entire court is out of order, and declares they will not participate in this legal farce—that is what will make them look vulnerable, because it's handing every bad faith actor an automatic pretext to get the website they hate to shoot themselves in the foot. See also my comment above. Remsense ‥ 论10:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hear what you're saying, but the Indian courts are continually looking to expand their power, influence and jurisdiction. They are often seen as more powerful than the legislature and executive within that country; they share some alarmingly similar characteristics in their conduct and processes with the judiciaries of failed states and military juntas. I expect we will see this conduct continue over the coming months and years with more frequency until a line is drawn somewhere in the sand. Daniel (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Daniel, I think there is long-term reason for concern, certainly—I think one has to play ball to some degree, but determining when that degree has been exceeded is a big part of what you pay your shiny expensive counsel for. After that, who knows! — Remsense ‥ 论10:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that Jimbo. WMF Legal are in a hard place. Having 48,145,337 "clients" it's impossible for them to give confidential strategy briefings. Cabayi (talk) 10:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comforting in what you do not mention, the anonymity of editors in India is not at risk? If it's not a concern that is great, and i am sure you would have mentioned if it were. fiveby(zero) 10:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like, what? If India wants to block us like Turkey did, well, that's why people invented things like Tor, VPNs, etc. If India's threatening something else to WMF there, get out of India. India can't do anything to someone who's not there. (Unless, of course, the WMF is going to hand over data about editors who are there, in which case I hope no one would ever trust them regarding anything again.) SeraphimbladeTalk to me10:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it's better for Wikipedia to cease all operations in India than for it to hand over personal information of editors to the Indian courts. Ratnahastin(talk)10:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sera, WMF pulled the article to keep the ability to appeal open. They aren't trying to make sure we aren't blocked in India. They're trying to make sure whatever decision is made can be appealed up the line. Valereee (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I entirely understand that. The answer to any such demand still must be "No". If that means they block us, they block us; that's all they can do if WMF pulls anything they may have there out of India. Unless, of course, they want to involve the community in the discussion about what's going on, and we agree that it's better to have it removed for some time so they can do what they're going to do. But otherwise, if having it up messes with their appeal, well—that sucks, but we should not be telling governments "Just make threats, and we'll remove whatever you don't like!". And now they even know how to make the threat—"Remove it right now or we won't let you appeal!". That cannot happen. SeraphimbladeTalk to me12:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they believe that, like in Turkey, if they appeal it high enough, WMF will win, and that will be not only a win for Wikipedia but for free speech in India in general. And having the community discuss isn't really practical when a court order expired two days ago and the hearing is about to open; we could spend three months discussing this. I think temporary blanking is worth it, myself. We can always open an RfC here to get input. Valereee (talk) 12:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's probably what we should do, but I think we'll need some more information first. To start with (and Jimbo Wales, maybe you can answer this, or know who can), how temporary is "temporary"? If we're talking "Leave it down for a week or two until the appeal's filed", then I don't think people would object to that too much. If it's "We'll have an answer in five years, maybe, if we're lucky, and it might still be no"—I think that would be a very different conversation. Legal processes can be very lengthy indeed, so I think we need to have some time frame more specific than "temporary". SeraphimbladeTalk to me12:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's 'no' once there's no ongoing litigation, then yes, that's a very different conversation. That would be actual censorship. This is just complying with the laws in a country where discussing ongoing court cases is considered an attempt to influence those cases and therefore contempt of court.
But yes, it would be good to clarify what happens when the case is decided in Delhi High Court, but before an appeal is filed with the Supreme Court. Valereee (talk) 12:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't be complying with those laws. Now, if we need to as a genuinely brief measure to achieve some goal—maybe we say "Okay, this is worth a one-time compromise"; all rules can be ignored after all. But we certainly shouldn't be making a habit of knuckling under to things like that, and I'm afraid we're setting a very, very bad example for other such governments to follow. SeraphimbladeTalk to me12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add a plus one to what Valereee is saying here and additionally that in my view the Wikimedia Foundation legal team has earned some trust that it understands the principles that we are all collectively fighting for and that it is acting competently to advance those principles under difficult circumstances that call for hard tradeoffs. Say what you will about other parts of the WMF, but our Legal team is genuinely top-tier and alined on principles, and I am 100% sure that they detest complying with this order. Best, KevinL (aka L235·t·c) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The circumstances of which Wikipedia was blocked in Turkey are vastly different from this time round. At the very least, there is still a legal pathway for WMF and the other parties to resolve the matter. If ultimately Wikipedia has being blocked in India totally, we can argue for the Office action to be lifted. For what reason will we want to the article to be not being written by then?
While English Wikipedia has its own rulebook, and one that is evolved largely within USA's set of laws, as an international encyclopedia, we have to be cognizant that the world is made up of different cultures, and accompanying them, different sets of customs, rules, regulations, and laws. What one may think as censorship or self-censorship for not covering an ongoing legal case, in other parts of the world, it may be more prudent to have the case covered only after the case has ended so that one does not prematurely receive an invitation for a coffee/tea session with the authorities.
In the meantime, we can collect the relevant sources for referencing for the article when the Office action is lifted. At the same time, in recognition of the ongoing archive.org issue, please archive the sources on other archival sites such as archive.today or ghostarchive.org. I just realised that some links I had tried to retrieve from archive.org aren't archived in the last two weeks or so. – robertsky (talk) 12:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to worry about what's prudent when deciding to write an article. If a court orders WMF to take it down, and WMF decides that's in the best interest of long-term goals, fine. But to not write it in the first place because I'm worried a judge might take offense? No. Valereee (talk) 12:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not worried about the judge, but instead fellow editors who are in India. Ever stop and think what adverse effects it may bring to the local community/groups there? – robertsky (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already grabbed a copy from an archive site, and saved it offline as well. If anyone has an issue with getting it from archive sites, I'm happy to email them my copy. SeraphimbladeTalk to me13:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"but instead fellow editors who are in India" thats the hostage fallacy. Its the same problem with paying terrorists for hostages... You incentive hostage taking, not disincentive it. Ironically what would endanger editors in India the most is setting up a system where the Indian government can use editors in India as leverage against editors outside of India. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jimbo Wales, thank you for that update regarding the page takedown; that is reassuring to hear.
However, of greater concern is the WMF's apparent willingness to share PII with the Indian Courts; in line with Novem Linguae's question above, is WMF going to divulge any personal information (emails, IPs, etc.) about the three editors accused of defamation, under sealed cover or otherwise, and if so what types of PII will be disclosed? BilledMammal (talk) 13:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like an entirely reasonable decision, and I'm thankful that Wikipedia is prepared to be blocked in India for the sake of freedom of expression if it ultimately comes to that. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jimbo Wales: An appeal on constitutional matters, although usually accepted, could perhaps take years for a final decision because of the seemingly endless pendency of cases in India's Supreme Court. But once the matter is no longer sub-judice in the Delhi HC, the page on ani vs wmf can be put right back up, afaik (correct me if I am wrong). If the appeal is on civil matter (i.e court finds wmf guilty of defamation), editors here won't be able to add the defamatory content (mouthpiece of BJP) back up until resolution in supreme court. Is this correct? — hako9 (talk) 16:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You or someone on legal team of wmf will need to explain this to editors here because, they will keep editing cluelessly about the matter and admins won't know what they are supposed to do. I can reproduce the content on the deleted page right now, to a section in Freedom of expression in India. Will there be a staff action again? — hako9 (talk) 16:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. My preference, speaking personally, is that people mainly not do that sort of thing just to stir the stew. I don't see the point. WP:POINT. At the same time, I don't think it's necessary to step around on tip-toes nor for anyone to go wild WP:TROUTing anyone who talks about the case anywhere. We are all, or should be, reasonable people acting with kindness towards others. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Signpost is Wikipedia editors' own newsletter. Like everything else with Wikipedia, anyone can edit it, and it invites volunteer contributors. I am writing to request assistance from anyone who would like to draft the story about this legal issue. I have some notes started at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes. Here, a brief objective summary of the events is needed. If anyone would like to contribute other journalism, such as a personal opinion piece on the situation, then please express your interest at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom. Thanks! Bluerasberry (talk)15:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This feels like a bad idea. If covering the court case is what got us in trouble the first time, I doubt the court would look kindly on us doing it again, even if in a different format. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am disturbed when free speech is under legal threat. That does not mean we should take a poor legal strategy, such as ignoring court orders while a case is ongoing. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you a WMF employee? Because if not the "us" there isn't under court order and has no legal strategy. We are not the WMF. Also note that you are currently ignoring such a court order if it does apply, you are literally discussing the court order right now on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not a WMF employee, but I do view us as in this fight together given that they're fighting for our rights here. Doing things on Wikipedia that are likely to interfere with their strategy and piss off the court is, in my view, a bad idea if you want the WMF to win this case. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why are you commenting in a discussion which will almost certainly piss off the court? If you're taking the court seriously you aren't supposed to be having this conversation... You aren't supposed to even mention the case on wiki. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't refute anything I've said. An internal discussion vs something intentionally presented as a news report is very different and it's not unrealistic to think that the court would see it as such. And yes, I do think it would probably be better if we keep the discussion about the case itself to a minimum here, but since the discussion is already happening, it's not like my comments in particular are going to be the tipping point for the court being unhappy with us. Not interested in arguing about this with you. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have a long tradition of covering controversies which involve ourselves confidently, even handedly, and promplty, it is one of our best features and something that even our most ardent opponents will mention as a positive, its a peculiar badge of honor that anti-wikipedia people will refer to Criticism of Wikipedia or List of Wikipedia controversies for evidence of why Wikipedia sucks. I don't see a compelling reason to abandon that tradition, if you want to engage with me in that sense I would be very open to it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The principle shouldn't be abandoned; just put on pause until we get a final result in this court case. Unlike previous cases, the judge here doesn't seem to be able or willing to distinguish between actions of Wikipedia editors and of the Foundation (that's how this whole thing became a problem in the first place). Given that, us editors doing stuff that the judge wouldn't like has the potential to cause problems for the Foundation's legal strategy.
After the court case is resolved, whatever the result, I expect that we will fully cover this, and that we will restore the page on this case (even if we lose the case and get blocked in India for it). However, doing so now would make it far more difficult for us to win the case. That's why we shouldn't. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the problem is that we aren't seen as separate wouldn't doing the same thing be the problematic one by that logic? And is an argument to do or not do something in order to seek advantage in a court case the foundation is involved in an WP:IAR argument or is there another policy or guideline basis for it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's an IAR thing. In my opinion we should try to make the Foundation's job easier here, because doing so will benefit us in the long-run. (Of course, it wouldn't be IAR if they force us to shut this discussion down or removing coverage of the case elsewhere on the site... but I'd rather avoid things even getting to that point.) Elli (talk | contribs) 17:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you honestly cannot understand the difference between "violating NPOV to promote the Foundation" and "not posting things that will harm their chances in ongoing litigation" then I do not think there is any point to discussing this further. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't fabricate quotes, thats just not what I said... I said temporarily put aside in the context of IAR, which unless I misunderstand is the only policy or guideline on which your argument is based. Doing something to help a group's chances in a court case is a WP:NOT problem, that doesn't change when the party in question is the Wikimedia Foundation and not the The Coca-Cola Company. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Signpost isn't part of the encyclopedia. Content policies don't apply to it. Not that any content policy requires us to write about a topic anyways. This is a very silly thread. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)17:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as editors shouldn't worry about performance, I disagree with the notion we should adjust our behaviours to assist the WMF's active legal affairs, especially our own syntheses of what would help (with a clear distinction here in regards to settled policies, e.g. fair use). The Foundation has a legal team and contractors who are professionally poised to handle these situations. Once a hammer comes down, if it does at all, then those directions should be followed. DatGuyTalkContribs17:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are all fine here, our speech isn't under legal threat. Bluerasberry can write elsewhere and we'll all be able to read about things elsewhere. It is annoying and shocking to see happen is all. I'd like to hear from those whose speech is under threat in the Signpost article. I thought that Wikipedia gave them the best protection they could to do so. From what i'm reading and how it appears that is not so strong a protection as I thought (but most importantly what they thought). Based on Jimbo's statement above and taking it as more reliable, it appears that this is not so great a concern in this case. fiveby(zero) 17:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a big difference between a general discussion about how the community should react to the issue between the WMF and the Indian courts, and publishing an article in something which identifies as a newspaper, covering apparently the same sorts of things as the recently redacted article covered. I know that it's ultimately the WMF's decision what flies and what doesn't fly, and no doubt they'll take the Signpost article down themselves if they deem it appropriate to do so... but personally I do agree with Elli that it would be prudent and WP:COMMONSENSE not to inflame this situation any further by publishing a Signpost article on it now, given the Office Action decision to redact the article itself. Once it all blows over, the Signpost can cover it at will. — Amakuru (talk) 18:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the Signpost used its own web server instead of piggybacking a free ride on WMF's servers, this wouldn't be an issue. And they'd be closer to an actual independent newspaper instead of being this website's newsletter. I agree they shouldn't pour fuel on the fire by posting about the case on the WMF's servers. Levivich (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the one example at hand, the process seemed to be: ANI lawyers notice whatever > They tell judges > Judges get annoyed > Judges order WMF. It won't necessarily become a habit, and the previous article was in mainspace + linked on the ANI WP-article, and so more visible to the lawyers involved.
It will be hard to convince all Wikipedians not to discuss this possibly first-time-ever issue on-WP, but prudent people can always join the discussion on Wikipediocracy instead. I don't think writing in The Signpost is more not prudent than this thread. We as a community don't handle gag-orders well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of us would rather have the discussion via messages left in gas station bathrooms than on Wikipediocracy. That aside, I think we handle gag orders well, in that we refuse to shut up, which is a good way of handling them. We just don't handle them the way those who would hold the gags wish we would. SeraphimbladeTalk to me19:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely an appropriate quote, but not in the way you think. If someone's trying to keep me from speaking either my opinion, or any true fact, and I have not voluntarily agreed to that situation (e.g., an NDA in exchange for access to sensitive data in employment), they are trying to steal my right to speak. And I won't take too kindly to that. SeraphimbladeTalk to me19:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the editor-in-chief exists to post in situations like this.
Well: I don't think it's possible for a thing to fit fit more clearly in the Signpost than this (what could possibly matter more? the crossword?) At the same time, I would personally prefer to do so in a way that avoids hosing the entire project and everybody on it for no clear benefit. The obvious journalistic response to open direct censorship is somewhere between "NUTS!" and "Aux armes citoyens", which is altogether good and proper.
I would consider directly causing the death of the website we're hosted on something of an anathema to our ability to exercise journalistic integrity; I would consider e.g. having entire articles summarily oversighted with no appeal something of a pointless exercise in boneheadedness and organizational dysfunction for its own sake. Anything which results in these things happening, then, is no good. So what actions result in which outcomes? Well, I don't know. I don't think anybody really has a complete picture of what is going on, hence this vacuous if-by-whiskey post. All I can say for sure is that some emails are going to be sent. jp×g🗯️18:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might sound radical. But hear me out. Since signpost is a newspaper, you report 2 facts. 1) The article xyz was taken down. 2) Jimjams quote verbatim. That's it. No bylines. No explanation/analysis (not that most of the editors here are competent in legal analysis anyways). — hako9 (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In 2024, WMF also took two content-related OAs for two articles at fr.wiki. It is perhaps pertinent to note that in the period from 01-01-2015 to today — which is about a decade —, there have probably been only five OFFICE ACTIONs concerning content per this discussion: the article on the ANI litigation (2024), Lois Lee (2015), two fr.wiki articles (2024), and a Zh.wiki article (2018).
In any case, WMF issued a long statement to the fr.wiki community. I found it interesting because it seemed like an unprecedentedly detailed intervention (not attributing any negative motives, though; it's perhaps helpful) by WMF into content, going to the extent of suggesting how the community ought to write articles, deal with COI requests, etc. They also note that French courts are becoming increasingly sympathetic to the subjects of Wikipedia articles and probably hints that there could be more litigations (and similar OAs?) in the future. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As is often the case, we have used automatic translation tools here in order to communicate with you in France – which explains the lack of inclusive writing/turns of phrase, for which we apologize. Bet the French loved that lol... Valereee (talk) 20:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I bet the non-French members of the French-speaking Wikipedia community loved it even more... Like starting of a letter to the ewiki community with "we have used automatic translation tools here in order to communicate with you in America" (although to be fair they do use the much more accurate "French-speaking Wikipedia community" further in) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now this is a good subject for a The Signpost article, @JPxG. Office actions in history or something like that. I read some of a discussion linked in the long statemant [82], and the WMF lawyer there seems to be saying that it generally helps the legal department when the encyclopedic content is good quality, so they don't have to defend crap in court. I'll try to keep that in mind if I do more edits in the general area. And I think the deleted article was pretty ok from the WP-perspective. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a registered user email address leak. The passwords are hashed and salted so those shouldn't be useful to a hacker unless the user had a weak password or is reusing passwords. internetarchive.org and the Wayback Machine are up and working as of right now when I tested it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC) Added some caveats. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With that said, it wouldn't hurt for people to change their passwords, especially if they use the same password for their email address (which you shouldn't!). I imagine most Wikipedians are going to have Internet Archive accounts given how difficult it is to write articles without its library. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm quite upset about this. Not only because this interfered with my work, but because I can't fathom why someone would want to DDOS one of the most useful services on the internet. Speaking of, I hope Wikimedia's own DDOS mitigation systems are solid... --Grnrchst (talk) 14:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I read about that GreenC and honestly I find it pathetic. I’m going to refuse to bring politics into this discussion (which while they contribute slightly to this, I infer it is rather unnecessary), but this must be the lowest way I have ever seen someone try to protest; it’d be like burning Buckingham Palace to protest the Monarchy. Wolfquack2 (talk) 16:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt it. As the editorial says, this kind of attack is done for advertising purposes. They probably hope someone will think "Wow, they must be expert hackers" and hire them. They are probably hoping that potential employers will not think "Seriously? That's the biggest, hardest target you can handle?"
I’m surprised hardly any Wikipedians are replying to this serious topic. Actually I’ve seen hardly ANYBODY in general (social, news etc) that have gotten noteworthy attention. CNN, FOX, CBC and other mainstream medias aren’t even mentioning the issue. Driving me nots honestly. I wish the masses and higher ups would understand how important this library is, not only because of the Wayback but also the thousands of documents stored on it. Wolfquack2 (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m saying this as someone who has a interest in Lost Media. The Archive being lost in the future could be devastating for that community. Several books that have been out of print and lost to time are stored there. Not every library in the states or elsewhere probably contains that vast of information. Wolfquack2 (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this gets at a pretty gaping vulnerability with centralised infrastructure as a way to preserve information. This is only a problem because we have nowhere else to go for these books and archived web pages; we have the Internet Archive, rather than many Internet Archives (from mirrors to alternatives). If we want to ensure that such things won't be so devastating to our work in future, we need to build redundancy. To some extent, this applies to Wikipedia too. It only becomes the Library of Alexandria if we let it remain so. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Grnrchst I certainly agree with that. The problem is that I don’t think many are willing to make alternatives since it takes a lot of time and effort to run one of these things. Then again this situation may open those opportunities… who knows. Wolfquack2 (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as mainstream media, I see reports in Newsweek, Forbes, ABC, Times of India, and The Hill. Plus of course the techie places like Wired, The Verge, etc. But, yeah, less coverage than I would have thought. RoySmith(talk)16:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify; I’m not saying that the “tech-neck” news (as I like to call them) aren’t real media/news, I’m merely saying that the more, say, “infamous” medias (for a lack of better terms) appear to be not covering such. If you ask me, the Internet Archive is more important than the 2024 Election. Wolfquack2 (talk) 16:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speculation here, but I can think of a few motives, or 'anti motives' as it were, for why the MSM not covering it - first, the claimed source of the hack being 'pro palestinian', and the MSM's tendency towards deference to that side of the political issue. Also, an awful lot of MSM folks have been not just embarrassed, but in some cases 'canceled', due to the existence of the archive as the internet's memory - people who have made egregious statements in the past, and having them dredged up later - long after they were deleted - and weaponized against them. Third - the fact that the MSM is largely a dying concern, and the fact that the archive can in some cases cause a loss in revenue. For example, lots of older news articles are paywalled by the publishers, the largest and most well-known being the NYT and WaPo. Via the archive, a great many of those articles can be accessed without restriction.
As I said, this is all speculation. I wish there was more information available about how the archive manages their data. Considering all of the 'ransomware' incidents that have happened in recent years, that sort of exploit could indeed be ruinous - many petabytes of data encrypted by malefactors who refuse to share the key unless millions of dollars are paid. Unlike the Wikimedia foundation, the archive doesn't have an Everest-sized stack of cash lying around to pay such a ransom. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is.17:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's serious, because all of the Wayback Machine links on Wikipedia are down at the moment, with no clue as to when they might be back again. This is believed to be the result of a separate DDoS attack, but the Wayback Machine will not be back until all of this is fixed. --♦IanMacM♦(talk to me)17:54, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know just how many of our articles have wayback machine links? It would be quite illuminating to understand just how deeply this has affected us. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Enwiki itself has 12.5M wayback links in 2.5M articles (as of July), out of nearly 7M articles, or about one third of articles contain a wayback link(s), each containing 5 on average. -- GreenC20:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Anastrophe I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case you mentioned in the latter. And considering that the signatures to possibly overrule the Hacchett vs IA is only 40,000 signs away, I wouldn’t be shocked if this is something that scummy publishers are involved. Wolfquack2 (talk) Wolfquack2 (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only way i think to fix it is shut it all down for a few days implement major security fixes and features. Wikipedia foundation wink wink could y’all help them. •Cyberwolf•talk?18:42, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, that's exactly what the plan is per their most recent post https://x.com/brewster_kahle/status/1844790609573277792. They have it offline intentionally right now and estimate it will be back up in a few days. I'd love if the WMF were to help—besides the Wayback Machine, losing the IA library significantly affects my ability to expand several articles I'm working on. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest checking out Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library. I spent a couple of hours earlier this year really digging through the offerings, and it's amazing. It doesn't cover everything, but it covers a lot. The central search bar at the top is nice, but it doesn't search everything, so it's useful to do publisher-specific searches occasionally.
It's probably also worth looking into your local library's offerings. The online resources from my local library, which tend to be more pop culture in nature, complement TWL's offerings, which tend to be more scholarly in nature. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here at Wikipedia village pump, as well as in the Commons one, I've talked previously about the dangers that Archive faces, and I also suggested WMF collaboration to adress that. I hope recent Archive's partnership with Google provides them with the needed money, but its current infrastructure (according to their publicly available information) needs to be improved without doubt. For a collection so critical to humanity, 2 production copies in San Francisco Bay Area, with no proper backups, all or part of it is only one earthquake or one cyberattack from disaster. I would like this to change. MGeog2022 (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, things seem to be getting back to normal. Let's hope that this kind of event don't happen again in the future, but above all, if it happens, let's hope that it will be like this time, without any loss of data. MGeog2022 (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IA should hopefully get a little bit more robust each time it happens. Speaking generally, security and disaster recovery go from being low priority to top priority every time an incident happens. Over time organizations will iterate and harden their defenses. –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The group claiming to be behind the hack seems to have copy-pasted text from the Wikipedia article on the Internet Archive (specifically regarding lawsuits by publishers and record companies) in a twitter post justifying the attack;[86] it appears they're siding with the copyright claims of large corporations against the IA. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart. Oh, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!
Your email and your password hash were both stolen. A password hash is your plaintext password one-way encrypted, and usually looks something like this: $2y$10$rTgZnDT6ZB93l5gY6eO.r.g2C1L3taBEL.mM1M5PFdtj3tca.UlOe. Password hashes are usually not possible to crack, with some rare exceptions such as it being a really weak password. Your plaintext password is probably safe, although it wouldn't hurt to change it anyway. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, so given that my password was not re-used, other accounts should be fine? I assume I may get some spam in the coming days if my e-mail is stolen. Cremastra (talk) 00:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a bug that's been going around for a few weeks where users get logged out, apparently at random. I'm aware of a few incidents where people have been logged out (presumably due to this bug), didn't notice, and leaked their IP address. So this is just a heads up to be mindful of your login status. If you're running a non-default skin and/or custom CSS, it might be obvious when you get logged out. If you're running all the defaults, not so much. So just try to be alert to this. RoySmith(talk)01:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know if this is the right place to discuss this or seek remedy, but HT sources can no longer be added automatically via ref gadgets like ProveIt and VisualEditor, only manually. Can't this be fixed, the way other websites like The Times of India were? Kailash29792(talk)17:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that Visual Editor -> Cite -> Automatic -> pasting a hindustantimes.com URL and clicking "Generate" isn't generating good citations for that website? There's a procedure for fixing that but I forget the details. I think it might have to do with submitting a pull request upstream to Zotero? Anyway, you might have better luck posting this at WP:VPT. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are several possibilities, some of which we can fix and some of which we can't. This periodically happens to nytimes.com too, which is inconvenient. Mvolz (WMF) can usually figure out which kind of problem it is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I edit in wikipedia in different languages and I want please 3 things that I do not manage to do from translators:
1. Translate for me to Hungarian the sentence "In October 12 2024 Matip announced his retirement from professional football at the age of 33" to put in Joël Matip's page
2. Translte my english user page that you can see in the link bolow to Hungarian, and put it here
While these candidates have been ranked through the vote, they still need to be appointed to the Board of Trustees. They need to pass a successful background check and meet the qualifications outlined in the Bylaws. New trustees will be appointed at the next Board meeting in December 2024.
Feedback on chatbots as valid sources, or identifiers of them
We have a {{find sources}} template destined for Talk page use, which invokes a module to display a set of links to help editors find sources for articles. Here's one for Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico:
Applications for the committees open on 16 October 2024. Applications for the Affiliations Committee close on 18 November 2024, and applications for the Ombuds commission and the Case Review Committee close on 2 December 2024. Learn how to apply by visiting the appointment page on Meta-wiki. Post to the talk page or email cst@wikimedia.org with any questions you may have.
AffCom deals with organizations: Is this new group suitable for being officially declared an affiliate? Did that old group accidentally forget to file their report, or has it actually quit existing? If you are interested in the organizational side of the movement – editing events, conferences, national chapters, and so on – then this is for you.
Ombuds deals with individuals who have privacy concerns (e.g., misuse of CheckUser tools). I don't know how things stand at the moment, but they are usually desperate for people who can read and write in languages other than English, and for women. Technical skills are a plus, but you can learn those. The most important thing is that you care about editors' privacy.
CRC works with WMF Legal about office actions. I believe that criminal activity gets filtered out, so this is more like "they were wrong to ban me just because I was toxic to everyone" appeals instead of the "my lawyer says I might not actually go to prison" ones. I believe there are only a handful of requests each year at this point. Recommended for policy wonks and future lawyers, as well as folks with dispute resolution experience.
If you are even vaguely interested in one of these, please look into it. The best-case scenario is that they get more applicants than they need. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me provide another viewpoint. Here on enwiki, we tend to think of ourselves as the be-all and end-all of wikidom. Being on one of these committees exposes you to what's going on outside our walled garden and gives you a broader view of the wiki world, which is a good thing. RoySmith(talk)20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very future projects going full Crystal Ball
Basically, there's two works currently listed under Category:2110s works: the film 100 Years, and the Future Library project (plus a page for one of its constituent pieces of writing). Nothing wrong with talking about them as they have valid coverage, except that categorizing them flies in the face of Wikipedia:CRYSTAL. If we cannot assure something as usually predictable as elections or Olympics less than a decade in advance, then it's frankly silly to play along what two private entities claim will happen almost a century into the future. Sure, every announced release date is uncertain (see: Silksong), but within a few years it is sensible to believe the companies. Within several decades? Not so much. 2803:4600:1116:4C4:C163:2583:D895:96D (talk) 09:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want all my edits reverted.
I know this will be completely ignored especially considering corporations who don’t care at all about user’s privacy like Google but I will say this anyway. I want all the edits I have made reverted. I want everything I have added onto Wikipedia removed.
I believe it is my right to privacy and just as people are allowed to add content to Wikipedia they should also be allowed to remove content they have added. 92.9.187.249 (talk) 22:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whenever you edited Wikipedia in the past, you were informed in writing with each individual edit that you agree to our Terms of Use and agree to irrevocably release your text under the CC BY-SA 4.0 License and GFDL. That was a legally binding agreement that you accepted with each edit. Accordingly, you have no such right and no basis for making this request. Cullen328 (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes. The good old terms and services trick. Well, I am not surprised. Well then, you continue editing Wikipedia if it makes you feel good but as for me well I am getting out of what I consider a digital rubbish can set on fire. With that being said safe travels fellow internet surfers. This is me finally signing off from this site once and for all! 92.9.187.249 (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a "trick". It is a legal agreement that you voluntarily entered into every time you made an edit, and it is essential to the success of the #7 website on earth, with page views exceeding ten billion per month. I hope that you find a hobby that will be more satisfying to you. Cullen328 (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done [3] jps (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Moved from Wikipedia talk:Banning policy
MM (Give me info.) (Victories) 17:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Resolved
Users of the Wikimedia sites can now format dates more easily in different languages with the new 
White
Silver
Blue
Pink
Gold
Red
Green
Skyblue
Purple
Turquoise
Black
Agree, but only slightly. If you added the letters, it would be better. Also, a solution to your region-basing could be to do a Language-based (like "O" for "Office" would become "S" for "Schoolhouse" in a theoretical "Reversed English") The Master of Hedgehogs (converse) (hedgehogs) 14:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!
wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!